A different Old Timer!

Codger_64

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I just bought what I think is an interesting example of kitchen cutlery, a paring knife. At $9.99, it was inexpensive enough for me to buy it just for it’s curiosity value, and it does fit with my small collection of Craftsman butchers, Imperial paring knives etc. The knife itself is not really remarkable. From the seller’s description:

Really nice little carbon steel, paring knife. Measures about 6.75" OAL w/ 3 1/8" clip point blade. Sharp and sturdy. Wooden handles....

So what was it about this knife that was so interesting that I just had to have it? What made me curious?

2a5d4ie.jpg


It is odd, isn’t it? The faux hammer forged blade? What about the imprint on the handle?

So you tell me what you think about this knife before I tell you what I know about it!

Michael
 
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Michael,

I don't know much about kitchen cutlery but that knife is interesting and unique for sure. It does look authentic to me. And, you couldn't beat the price.

Jackie
 
A hint: This knife was likely made before November 1951. Ring any bells? :)
 
LF&C had a trademark on "UNIVERSAL" during that time period. They deep etched some of their blades with it.
 
I dunno much about kitchen cutlery either but that is a pretty cool knife for under $10 bucks!!! And Im the same way I'd buy anything that said old timer on it. - Joel
 
Dang Michael, I'm stumped. Imperial made some faux hammer forged knives in the seventies, but they looked nothing like that. It was made for Eisenhower's inaugeration :confused::D? It was Robeson's first attempt at a Kinfolk knife:eek:? It's the first Nagle Re-Blade? (sorry, saw Mark Nagle's name below:D:D)
 
LF&C had a trademark on "UNIVERSAL" during that time period. They deep etched some of their blades with it.

It was made by Landers, Frary & Clark some time before they...
"On March 2, 1950 Landers, Frary & Clark announced the closing of it's cutlery division after 84 years of manufacturing..." Barbara Ann Duggan
OYEZ! OYEZ!
An Account of the First One Hundred and Ten Years of Landers, Frary & Clark.
Unpublished manuscript by company historian dated 1953.

They used the Old Timer name as a trade name? Evidently so. And quit using it prior to it being registered as a trademark for cutlery by Baer. I did a TESS trademark search of Old Timer and didn't see a registration prior to the Imperial (registered as a trademark #72097490 on May 19, 1960, First use in commerce 1958-12-00). So the LF&C use had to be earlier. Perhaps Baer bought the name from LF&C? Or it may never have been registered, or have expired.

So was there some connection between Landers, Frary & Clark and Albert Baer?

An excerpt from Albert Baer's Unpublished Memoirs on …the deal...

It wasn't long after we bought the Devine factory that the Remington Arms Company decided to concentrate on defense work and go out of the knife business.

Soon I was on my way to negotiate with Remington. I had a good letter of introduction from John Roscob, former Chairman of DuPont, the owner of Remington, but that didn't do much good in the negotiations. The final upshot was that the Pal Blade Company, through Joe Mailman, formerly of Utica Knife & Razor Company, bought the plant and he bought a lemon. I still have the papers of the offer that I made.

While visiting Remington, another competitor decided to sell out his business, Landers, Frary & Clark, and I bought, for steel was in short supply as were all metals since the defense program was now in full swing. All of the steel and metals that Landers had on hand, I bought for .02 a pound across the board. This, believe me, was a lifesaver for it gave us material at a crucial time.

It was evidently LF&C blade and spring steel, liner brass, scale and bolster materials that Baer’s new company, Ulster Knife Company, used to make their first knives during the period leading up to WWII.

LF&C did not go out of business, but did discontinue their pocket cutlery manufacturing. During the war years they made butcher knives, cleavers, and steels, also mess kit knives which Ulster did not make. They had lost much of their former market share in the pocket cutlery trade since 1936 when Imperial became dominant with their low priced Jackmaster line.

LF&C diversified during the war from their traditional products. They also made motorized gun mounts. This site says that during WWII,
"Landers, Frary and Clark again made everything from vacuum bottles to mess kits to gun mounts. The power-driven gun mount for this twin machine gun was manufactured by Lander, Frary & Clark, better known during peacetime as the maker of Universal brand home appliances such as toasters, coffee pots, and washing machines. (From The Universal Mirror, the company publication of Landers, Frary & Clark, New Britian, Connecticut, August 1943. Courtesy of the New Britian Industrial Museum.)"
This site mentions
"In 1931, Landers, Frary and Clark (L F & C) of New Britain, Connecticut began making official Scout knives under the trademark “Universal”. Interestingly, they also made an unofficial scout knife called the “Trooper”. It has the same exact configuration, just a different shield. L F & C stopped making official Scout knives in 1939."
It doesn't say why they discontinued making them.

Well, according to the Toaster Collectors:

Throughout the many years of its growth Landers had developed a conservative, intensely quality-minded image; here, it seemed, was a company so solidly rooted "it'll go on forever." So in 1950, when it announced the discontinuance of its cutlery division after eighty-four years of operation, the trade was shocked. Landers, they would tell you, acquired businesses--it didn't drop them.

But the next few years saw acquisitions. In 1954 Landers bought the Dazey Corporation with a big line of can openers, juicers, and other items. The following year it bought the Electric Steam Radiator Corporation, Paris, Kentucky, adding the name "Electresteem." In 1958 the Standard Products Company, Whitman, Massachusetts, was purchased and its line of portable appliances marketed through a new subsidiary, Handy-Hannah Products Corporation under the "Handy Hannah" brand. The same year a Canadian firm, Ever-Bright Limited, was bought. It made copper-clad utensils and portable appliances. To house the operation making private brand merchandise, Landers bought a big new plant in Ft. Smith, Arkansas, the Eastern Metal Products Company. In the next couple of years Landers also brought out a line of "Cookamatic" copper-cored stainless steel appliances, operated by a single control.
And according to the Lunch Box Collectors:
Universal
The old yankee housewares firm of Landers, Frary and Clark was in the lunch box business from 1954 to 1963. All of its products were sold under the Universal trademark, visible on the bottom of their steel/glass vacuum bottles. Universal hired outside artists to create lunch box artwork, including the legendary Wally Wood. Pittsburg Metal Lithography made the production sheets which were cut and stamped into kits at the company's New Britain, Connecticut plant.

From 1959 to 1961, Universal also sold a line of vinyl kits made by an unknown "bag house."

Lunch box production stopped in 1963, resulting from (depending on the account) a plant fire or a stalled company buy-out by employees. General Electric purchased the company in 1965 and later sold the lunch box stamping equipment to Okay Industries

And this oddity from a site documenting the Air Weather Service:

The "state of the art" in weather reconnaissance equipment in the 1960s was the Landers, Frary & Clark AN/AMR-1 "Radiosonde Receptor", a one-box tube-type receiver designed to record the data received from the Bendix AN/AMT-6 dropsonde. The system recorded strictly "raw" data on a strip chart, which was then converted into code groups by the dropsonde operator. The ARWO then transmitted this information by voice to ground stations.
So, was Baer aware of LF&C's prior use of the Old Timer name? I cannot imagine otherwise. I have no record of it being bought, but it was indeed allowed as a registered trademark and kept active through 2004 by Imperial Knife Associated Companies and Imperial Schrade.

Always on the lookout for predecessor knife patterns, this old paring knife is a neat example of the early origins of the Old Timer name.

Michael
 
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I dunno much about kitchen cutlery either but that is a pretty cool knife for under $10 bucks!!! And Im the same way I'd buy anything that said old timer on it. - Joel

I have the big butcher knife just like u have. Is it worth anything? How much? How rare is it?
 
Other than it's "value" as an example of a 1940's-50's wood handled butcher knife using the trademark mentioned above, it's value is the same as that of similar kitchen knives made since such as the Ontario Old Hickory. That is as a useful kitchen knife. LF&C manufactured cutlery in quantity and a frequent search shows that quite a few of these "Universal Old Timer" knives survive today. SO while we might say that they are uncommon, in a world sixty years later where stainless kitchen cutlery is common, they are not "rare". Since this original post I have acquired a nearly full set of these knives and duplicates, all for less each than a new stainless counterpart. While they still perform their tasks as well as they did when new, there is little demand for them.
 
Thanks for the history lesson. I love learning these things.
 
Hey, Codger! I just found advertisements for the LF&C official Boy Scout knife in the November and December, 1930 issues of Boy's Life.
 
Cool! Can we see a photo or scan of them? Also, I'd still like to see a period ad for the Old Timer kitchen and butcher cutlery if anyone runs across one. It will help to better pin down the period of production. Also note that Kabar used the Old Timer mark (blade etch) both prewar and post war on a folding hunter pattern.
 
NOVEMBER, 1930




December, 1930


I was looking because I just got one on ePrey for cheap. Patina but never sharpened. I think the seller's downfall, pricewise, was that his pictures made it look like an extra pin had been driven through the shield. I studied it, decided it was just an exceptionally sharp shield, and turns out I was right. :)
 
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Cool History!!! I try and buy all the pre 1975 Old Hickory and other Carbon Steel kitchen knives I can find. I can get them shaving sharp with a final few strokes on a Black Arkansas Stone.
 
A hint: This knife was likely made before November 1951. Ring any bells? :)
Would you happen to know what this is?
I just bought what I think is an interesting example of kitchen cutlery, a paring knife. At $9.99, it was inexpensive enough for me to buy it just for it’s curiosity value, and it does fit with my small collection of Craftsman butchers, Imperial paring knives etc. The knife itself is not really remarkable. From the seller’s description:



So what was it about this knife that was so interesting that I just had to have it? What made me curious?

2a5d4ie.jpg


It is odd, isn’t it? The faux hammer forged blade? What about the imprint on the handle?

So you tell me what you think about this knife before I tell you what I know about it!

Michael
I have a knife that says the same thing on the (Ebony?) handle with 3 brass inlays..This knife is spear shaped an huge! Like a bayonet! It has a brass crossguard. I have a pic of it on the fourm on face book.
 
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20617193_1500064126718938_4733595578427141861_o.jpg
Would you happen to know what this is?

I have a knife that says the same thing on the (Ebony?) handle with 3 brass inlays..This knife is spear shaped an huge! Like a bayonet! It has a brass crossguard. I have a pic of it on the fourm on face book.

This one?

Nice knife. Those are wood handles.
 
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