A Schrade Knife collectors' worst nightmare...issue with Schrade Loveless Knife.

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Larry303

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Jul 28, 2005
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G'day, I've owned 4 Mint in Box Schrade Loveless Collaboration knives C1975, plus 2 Red Unnumbered Sample knives from the Schrade Factory Sale and I have not seen this issue before with their micarta handles which continues to get worse by the month on this low number #0145, otherwise mint condition S/Loveless complete with original box and paperwork.........<3 of my collection S/ Loveless knives were low consecutive numbered, one of which <a sister to this knife> MIB I sold to a New York collector for Au$900 when Bob Loveless passed>........

This example #0145 has remained wrapped in original tissue in its original box wrapped separate to its leather sheath and has never been inserted in sheath or handled or dropped nor exposed to moisture etc, same as my other S/Loveless examples.....about three months ago I noticed a very fine separation of the micarta from the brass guard mid way along the guard....my immediate thought was it was a slight factory error in manufacture which I hadn't previously noted/seen......to my amazement I have just removed from its box again to check it out, and the following photos unfortunately tell the current story........

Something is going on and wonder what your thoughts are:.....micarta <now corrected to be delrin handles> is reputed to be very stable unlike celluloid..now remember that the handles are actually delrin not micarta..<I was thinking of BiCentennial issue PH1 and PH2>....therefor if it is not instability with the micarta <delrin>, I can only conclude something must be happening to the steel tang.....how could it possibly corrode? if that is what is happening....what steps could I take to prevent the problem becoming even worse...even if I now use as an EDC......it now appears to be separating on the pile side as well.....refer photos...
Has anyone else noted a similar problem with any Schrade micarta handled fixed blades?......I've owned maybe 30 odd PH1 and PH2's and never seen this problem with any....how unlucky for it to happen with a MIB untouched S/Loveless.....wouldn't that rot your socks as a Schrade collector?......
 

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more photos from every angle to give a better idea of what may be going on.....
 

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last couple....appreciate hearing your thoughts re the problem and possible remedy to stem the erosion..I thought the steel/materials used by Schrade in the S/Loveless were of superior quality.....I would return it if they were still in Ellenville!......lol......Hoo Roo
 

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G'day Jamo, if it was a bad batch it's taken 39 years to react.....this knife was mint with no issues whatsoever 6 months ago..its even been photographed on lv's 'collectors corner'...
That reminds me you bought one of the unmarked S/Loveless's from me that came from the Schrade factory sale..have you checked it?...have you still got it?...I'm sending that certificate of authenticity to you if you PM your postal addy mate..UL/..Hoo Roo
 
Hi Larry, it may be rust or a reaction coming from the brass. Have you always kept them away from humidity?
I have just looked at four of my knives; one of them has something going on in that area - no cracks, but a very slight bucklering.
Maybe 0.1000" but some pushing going on. The way the handle is bolted to the blade, could stop expansion against the brass.
I will keep an eye out for any cracking... Ken.

It looks OK in this photo...
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G'day Ken, the steel used was stated by Schrade at the time to be <crucible> 154CM at about 60Rc <Rockwell>...this was supposed to be superior to the usual 440-C stainless.....basically the same composition as 440C however Schrade added 4% MO <Molybdenum> and reduced the Chromium by 3-4%.....and bit less Manganese and Silica...carbon was about the same 1.05%......MO=Molybdenum was added to the mix to increase its tensile strength, hardness,and strength under bending motion,making the steel easier to work and INCREASES resistance to corrosion....
This steel on the Loveless was supposed to be superior not only for edge holding by increasing the Rc <hardness> but also its stainless/non corrosion properties?......
The inside of the box and paperwork show no signs of moisture/humidity damage...and I originally obtained all three consecutive numbered examples from the same source together, some years ago...
I believe there is corrosion going on under the micarta and I doubt my example will prove to be an orphan.....maybe a time bomb waiting for collectors....one expects it from celluloid but not the "superior" materials used by Schrade for the RL-2....into my fishing box for cutting bait, that will sort it out real quick........its got an excellent edge...Hoo Roo
 
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Larry, looking at the second picture in your first post, the lines of the steel and the brass are straight as they were from the factory. It seems to me it is the handle material that has eroded away from the steel and brass. I suspect Schrade was sold (probably unknowingly) a defective batch of handles that has taken nearly 40 years to manifest itself. Unfortunately, they are out of business now which kind of leaves collectors dangling in the wind.
 
I do believe you are correct Cal, from the Schrade brochure/literature which forms part of the box bling...."Delrin handle guaranteed to last the life of the knife...and joined with solid brass escutcheons, fastened for life with tapered rivets".......I guess the handle has lasted the life of the knife....it's the knife which is now deceased...lol...........
I was thinking of my Quincentenary PH1 and PH2 knives when I thought of micarta....common garden variety Delrin, perhaps I have no right to expect more....I would like a dollar for every delrin pin crack I have now noted in Schrade 8OT's and 34OT's from the 1960's....as Cal points out Delrin can be unstable given certain circumstances...still marginally better than celluloid or bovine bone...for shrinkage or cracks...
Cal points out Delrin can perform poorly exposed to certain reactive gases....I do admit to slipping out an occasional quiet fart in my knife Den...is this the price I must now pay for my indescretions?...lol.....
The Loveless is a beautiful practical design fixed blade pity Schrade never went with the Micarta...Schrade made some beautiful folders and fixed blade knives with micarta through the years...and all seem very stable compared to their Delrin....I'll spray WD40 liberally on this Loveless before putting in my fishing kreel, might even carry it out prospecting...Hoo Roo
 
Great suggestions Cal, Michael, and Orvet...never considered alternatives..still in shock!..you feel its a delrin problem rather than a corrosion problem?...<can't actually imagine how 154CM never exposed to any elements could corrode>..a snazzy toasted stag handle on a Schrade Loveless would look yummy, good enough to eat.......wonder if he has done any Schrade Loveless previously......
I've lost his latest email addy...do you know it?...thanks,.Hoo Roo
 
Larry, I'm sorry to hear about this. I have no idea what might have caused that. :(
Maybe you could contact Herman Williams to see if he might have any ideas?
 
Thanks mate, much has been written in the past about the perils of storing aged celluloid handled knives with other knives....I think Delrin may well be our next ticking time-bomb....private messages to me have indicated my problem is far from being an isolated problem....no doubt more will now be written about it and in the future..

I have contacted Herman recently <what a grand man he really is> and sent him all the above photos and more.....I'm sure he will not mind me quoting a brief part of our correspondence after he viewed the photos....."be sure to take the deteriorating handles off as soon as you can, and don't let deteriorating material get close to your other knives. It will cause them to rust quickly".........sounds like the advice we used to receive for celluloid does it not?....may end up being a problem of plague proportions for knife fanciers in the future?..I hope not!..remember this is a former mint untouched set that has never been exposed to extreme elements....<no different to my other knives without apparent issues>....nor has the knife even been inserted into the leather sheath and both knife and sheath have been kept wrapped separately in thick unbleached tissue paper for many years.......Hoo Roo
 
I have to wonder if maybe this could be the effect of different chemicals added to the material to get a slight different color? Or even just a bad batch of Delrin, possibly an employee mixing the Delrin incorrectly?
I have never seen this problem before, and I have to wonder if it is specific to the handles of the Schrade Loveless with this particular color handle?
Again, my condolences. This has to be Heart Breaking. :(
 
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