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Another Paypal Discussion

I've only done business on here (bladeforum) a couple times compared to some places where I've had dozens of transactions. In every single ad I've ever placed I have paid the fees and the shipping AND the insurance to cover the knife for the agreed on price.

I don't pass up on knives I want bad enough if the seller has other practices, but I do weigh their habits into the consideration.

I think it's more than laziness that has people saying that they want the net. I think it's petty greed as well.

My opinion (and habits) will not change them in any event. I do as i do because of how i was brought up.

Cheers.
 
I just had a thread I started on this topic closed, so I'll bring it here since this is the more appropriate thread. F&F/net payments are violations of PayPal's terms of service, are unethical, and don't have a place on BladeForums if we truly view this forum as a place of high standards.

The feedback I was given when my thread was closed is that BF is not inclined to act on this issue, because "no one likes more rules" and it would add too much work for the moderators.

Respectfully, these are weak arguments, but it seems the issue is close to settled at this point. Sure, I personally will walk away from deals that are "F&F" or "net to me", but that won't stop it from happening. Disappointing!
 
If you're going to quote me at least quote my entire post please.

Why should a forum get involved with what two people do in a private deal? If people bothered to read the rules there probably be less problems with PayPal.
 
If you're going to quote me at least quote my entire post please.

Why should a forum get involved with what two people do in a private deal? If people bothered to read the rules there probably be less problems with PayPal.

I didn't think there was any point in naming names. Not a big deal.

Your second sentence doesn't make sense to me. Should the forum be involved in a deal between two private members? Well, sure, if that deal was done on this forum, enabled by this forum, sponsored by this forum, and involving at least one PAYING member. Those sound like a lot of good reasons to me.

People absolutely should pay attention to the rules. Couldn't agree more. Do you mean the forum rules or the PayPal rules though? The forum rules accurately direct buyers to use PayPal "as it was intended, according to their Terms of Service" (which is a little nebulous but whatever). The problem is that the forum rules say nothing about SELLERS soliciting Gift payments. And that is really where the problem is--on the seller side, not the buyer side. So why make a rule for the BUYER but not the SELLER? It just doesn't make sense to me.
 
I just had a thread I started on this topic closed, so I'll bring it here since this is the more appropriate thread. F&F/net payments are violations of PayPal's terms of service, are unethical, and don't have a place on BladeForums if we truly view this forum as a place of high standards.

The feedback I was given when my thread was closed is that BF is not inclined to act on this issue, because "no one likes more rules" and it would add too much work for the moderators.

Respectfully, these are weak arguments, but it seems the issue is close to settled at this point. Sure, I personally will walk away from deals that are "F&F" or "net to me", but that won't stop it from happening. Disappointing!

You're trying to make BF responsible for policing us, when we should be adults and police ourselves. BTW, I hope you told the Instagram guy to just kick your payment back to you and find another buyer.
 
I do not sell here but have bought and sold actively on other sites; shotguns or watches ranging mostly from $1200-3000, but some bigger stuff goes though there. I've bought a couple of knives here so far, and it looks like G&S and including shipping is the convention.

The "net to me" is an accepted convention on some of these other sites, just an observation. I'd say it's very common. It's also common to accept only USPS money orders for firearms, which is all I'll accept for higher priced items, or wire transfer. All types of checks are too risky unless you wait to insure they clear, and money gram money orders can be counterfeited, and PayPal isn't fraud-free either, so I'm told.

Money orders are also common for watches, but much more PayPal there, where you see a mix of terms, like "please add 3% for fees", or "fees included", or" net to me". I once sold an item on a sailing forum and when the net wasn't right, I contacted the guy to let him know he was short. But this was the accepted practice in that venue and my understanding was that he had overlooked this and simply needed to add $10, $20 or $65. Whatever the sale was, and he gladly obliged.

I have always broken my sales down into 1) sale price for item 2) shipping and insurance 3) fees. Maybe it's just me, but I like to know what I'm paying for. As a result, I've sold most things that way, except smaller stuff. Like under $200

On this site, nearly every sale is via a small flat rate box. That makes a big difference.

On the other sites, we use expedited services with often $10-30 or more in insurance. Watches often ship expedited and pistols are required to go overnight, long guns, ground. It adds a lot to the cost, but I only charge the actual cost of the shipping and insurance. If the item doesn't arrive, buyer is refunded and I file claim. It's fair. And policy per PayPal

Family and Friends is used on one site for purchases of thousands of dollars between highly trusted members. It's quite common. But again, every forum has a convention, and pricing is commensurate with that overall scheme.

After some reflection, and reading this and other threads on the interwebs, I am now going to exclusively use the correct service for transactions. Sometimes people just choose on their own though, and automatically go F&F, to avoid fees, show trust, I don't know. We're all pretty happy to have places we can more or less trust fellow active members with a history, and pursue our hobbies while saving a bunch of $. It feels good to have Internet "friends" that you know would not cheat you. We're not making money, in some ways we're sharing knives, and pay only a small price to possess them for a little while. Want a sebenza? Buy one used, then when you're over the thrill or if it isn't your style, sell it for a small loss and move it on to the next guy, often in brand new condition.

That's the spirit in which I do business, where we're not in this for profit, some of us. I don't really want others to bear these fees when they're not built into the cost. Flat rate shipping and fees on a $100 knife? Much easier to absorb, and pricing across the board should factor in these costs.

Just some thoughts as a new member having navigated this recently and come to the conclusion that I'll keep it simple and be very clear about my terms. Which means spelling out all the acronyms! Goods and services, shipping and insurance included, etc. this works well for knives, but not as well for all firearms where I've spent $50 to ship a $900 heavy gun in a heavy case.

One thing I would never do after seeing all these recent discussions is assume we're all on the same page.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
...we should be adults and police ourselves.

Exactly. Moderators do enough without having to babysit what we do in our own deals.

If you don't like F&F or "net to me" don't do business with those people. That's what I do.
 
Exactly. Moderators do enough without having to babysit what we do in our own deals.

If you don't like F&F or "net to me" don't do business with those people. That's what I do.

I agree. If it was a matter of legality(criminal activity), I'm sure the administration would quash it. Paypal has the ultimate responsibility of policing their policies.
 
Exactly. Moderators do enough without having to babysit what we do in our own deals.

If you don't like F&F or "net to me" don't do business with those people. That's what I do.

Drops mic and struts off stage!
I will NOT buy anything from a seller demanding this type of transaction.
Insurance to be paid by the buyer???? Nope.
Net to me??? Nope.
F&F????? Nope.
Add % for fees??? Nope.
Seller not responsible for delivery???? Nope

State one price, G&S and we're good.
Joe
 
I've only done business on here (bladeforum) a couple times compared to some places where I've had dozens of transactions. In every single ad I've ever placed I have paid the fees and the shipping AND the insurance to cover the knife for the agreed on price.

I don't pass up on knives I want bad enough if the seller has other practices, but I do weigh their habits into the consideration.

I think it's more than laziness that has people saying that they want the net. I think it's petty greed as well.

My opinion (and habits) will not change them in any event. I do as i do because of how i was brought up.

Cheers.

Drops mic and struts off stage!
I will NOT buy anything from a seller demanding this type of transaction.
Insurance to be paid by the buyer???? Nope.
Net to me??? Nope.
F&F????? Nope.
Add % for fees??? Nope.
Seller not responsible for delivery???? Nope

State one price, G&S and we're good.
Joe

I'm pretty much with both you guys, even though your opinions and practices differ somewhat.

For my part I never have and never will buy OR sell F&F. I've sold more than a few and bought many more. Not only does it violate PP's terms of service, but it's silly to give up the protection G&S affords for a few bucks. 3% of the transaction is damn cheap for insuring the exchange, the delivery, and the condition of the purchase and protects both the buyer and seller from the burden of guaranteeing the transaction. The fee is proportional to the sale price, so it's only 3 bucks on a hundred and 30 bucks on a grand. You wouldn't pay 30 bucks not to lose a thousand or to have to cough that much up and be out both the money and the knife? Paypal provides a service and deserves to get paid--that seems pretty simple to me.

As to how I deal with someone asking net on something that strikes my fancy, I usually make an initial offer that's somewhat less than the ask and specify G&S. I don't know that I've ever done that and ended up paying the ask plus fees. Usually I end up at the ask or less including fees. If a knife is well priced and I really want it, I have on occasion added the fee and paid that, but rarely. I think asking net is lazy and deceptive and does raise my alert level just a taste. Still, the bottom line is indeed the bottom line and I can do the math pretty easy and decide if it's worth it or not. Not ever paying F&F, though. :grumpy: :thumbdn:
 
When most sellers mean "net" amount means it is your choice.. Pay with regular paypal (G&S) and add % or pay with F&F and avoid fees. Or pay with USPS MO .

As long as the seller gets the total actual amount they don't care how you pay.
 
When most sellers mean "net" amount means it is your choice.. Pay with regular paypal (G&S) and add % or pay with F&F and avoid fees. Or pay with USPS MO .

As long as the seller gets the total actual amount they don't care how you pay.

Not true. I will not accept a F&F payment and have refused them in the past. I now make sure this never happens by invoicing the buyer directly through Paypal... that way I control the options.

It's pretty simple...
1. If a seller accepts a F&F payment for goods or services rendered, they are in violation of Paypal's policy.
2. If a seller openly requests that the buyer cover the G&S fee, they are in violation of Paypal's policy.(I believe there are certain circumstances where this is permissible... but it didn't pertain to me.)
3. If a seller does not ship a sold item in accordance with Paypal's policy, they are in violation of Paypal's policy.

What this means?.... When you violate the Paypal Buyer/Seller policy, Paypal is not able to side with you in the event of a claim.
 
Not true. I will not accept a F&F payment and have refused them in the past. I now make sure this never happens by invoicing the buyer directly through Paypal... that way I control the options.

It's pretty simple...
1. If a seller accepts a F&F payment for goods or services rendered, they are in violation of Paypal's policy.
2. If a seller openly requests that the buyer cover the G&S fee, they are in violation of Paypal's policy.(I believe there are certain circumstances where this is permissible... but it didn't pertain to me.)
3. If a seller does not ship a sold item in accordance with Paypal's policy, they are in violation of Paypal's policy.

What this means?.... When you violate the Paypal Buyer/Seller policy, Paypal is not able to side with you in the event of a claim.

Nobody said you have to accept F&F. Just saying that if a seller says "net" amount it means just that. A lot of people still send USPS Money orders as well.

As far as Paypal.. why are you so concerned about them? They make $2.67 billion in seller fees every 3 months.
 
As far as Paypal.. why are you so concerned about them? They make $2.67 billion in seller fees every 3 months.
You got it wrong, bud. I'm not concerned about them at all. I wish they wouldn't charge fees or at least charge less. I'm concerned about ME and whether or not I have a leg to stand on when the time comes. I do think that Paypal offers a great service to sellers on a global level but that's where it ends. They are like any other tool... use them, but use them wisely or you could get hurt. 98% of the Paypal complaints could be avoided by adhering to the provided guidelines. There will always be scammers who outsmart the system. I'm still waiting for mine:grumpy:
 
Is that the criterion you use in deciding from whom you steal?

No I use common sense.

It is real simple.. if I sell a knife and I say it is $100. net. shipped . That means I get $100. It is up to the buyer how I get that amount.
 
No I use common sense.

It is real simple.. if I sell a knife and I say it is $100. net. shipped . That means I get $100. It is up to the buyer how I get that amount.

I assume that you meant it is up to the buyer how the seller gets his money. As the receiver of the money, you're the one who agreed to the PP TOS. So, you're the one who's defrauding PP, however you care to rationalize it.
 
I assume that you meant it is up to the buyer how the seller gets his money. As the receiver of the money, you're the one who agreed to the PP TOS. So, you're the one who's defrauding PP, however you care to rationalize it.

No I meant it is up to the buyer. Maybe I am a bit to old school . I don't care how I get my money as long as it is the "net" amount. Net means "net".
There is a big difference between breaking the "law" and "policy":

Did you ever speed while driving?
Have you ever sand Happy Birthday, sand Christmas songs or the Macarea in public? If so you violated copyright infringement and broke the LAW.
Have you ever played poker at home for money?
Have you ever connected to an unsecure Wifi?
Have you ever drove without a seat belt?
Have you ever peed outside?
Failed to update you drivers license when you moved?
Used your cell phone while driving?

If so, you actually broke the "LAW" and not POLICY. Big difference so get off you high horse and worry about something more important.
 
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If I speed on occasion that excuses you from responsibility for stealing services from PayPal? That's an interesting moral precept. And, spare me the "old school" nonsense. Dishonesty isn't new school or old school - it's just dishonesty. Own it.
 
No I use common sense.

It is real simple.. if I sell a knife and I say it is $100. net. shipped . That means I get $100. It is up to the buyer how I get that amount.

Ha! You gotta be putting me on... You expect the buyer to either calculate and add extra for PP fees or choose to send F&F? You do realize what an easy target you are, right? Do a little research into PP scams. You wave all of your leverage if a transaction happens to go South. Not something I care to gamble with, but perhaps you only do this as a passtime. This is how I make a living.... claimed income and all. Did you know that paypal fees are tax-deductible?
 
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