Custom based on commercial design?

Aldebaran said:
I am probably going to be yelled at for this, but I want a good blade steel version of a Chinese budget knife! I originally purchased a Harnds Talisman as a recommended cheap way of trying ball bearing pivots. I have found this knife to be a perfect fit for me in size, blade shape, and comfort in hand. It is an original design that doesn't seem to have a similar design in the better knife manufacturer world.

What do I want different? Well the pivot hole to pivot pin clearance is a bit high for one. The blade steel is AUS8. AUS8 isn't the worst steel in the world but I would really like this knife in CTS-XHP or something similar. The flipper tab is a bit misplaced as a finger guard when the knife is open and could use a bit of tweaking. The pocket clip could stand a tweak or two also to make it a bit stronger and reshaped as I have done with the one I have.

It is probably a bit ironic that I want to copy a Chinese knife, no?
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Somewhat ironic, yes. :) Still, I understand the sentiment of wanting to "perfect" production or midtech knives. We love to mod them -- swapping blades, changing grinds, making new scales, anodizing, adding jimping, choils and aftermarket pocket clips, etc. The kind of stuff you want seems no different to me than the kind of stuff we already do.

Personally, if I had the skills, I'd be making myself "perfect" versions of all kinds of other designers' knives for my own use.
 
I've actually wondered this myself a lot of times for much the same reason: If only this minor change that the factory company will never do was there, it would be a perfect knife... but the blade steel is always a killer, because while you can 'pimp' grinds, handles, or whatever, on a fixed blade, replacing the blade steel means you have to copy the knife.

... I guess though in my case it'd be easier to get the permission of the original designer. I'd love a Perrin Street Beat in a different handle configuration and S35VN. But Fred really only makes them in carbon steel, and Spyderco isn't going to do a sprint run just for me. But maybe Fred would let someone else make a one-off instead.

And in some cases you don't really need permission. If I wanted someone to make me a Lum-style tanto like the Spyderco fixed Lum tanto, I wouldn't feel it necessary to ask Spyderco since it wasn't their design and since hundreds of makers are making Lum-inspired designs. Same thing with Scagel and some others.
 
The Shirogorov knives certainly look like what I would want, but the price is way out of my comfort zone. I know, it is naive of me to think I can get a special blade made for cheap, I was just wishing out loud.
 
Just about every folding knife looks like another folding knife...to a great degree. Just adopt the characteristics that you like and change the others to what you are looking for.
I have had three complete custom folders done by one custom maker. My parameters were closely followed by the maker, and all three titanium folders were of excellent build quality. I didn't like any of them; sold them quickly.
I suppose that means that I'm NOT a designer.
I know what I like when I HOLD one, but NOT when I design one.
My latest venture...and most successful, is to take a folder that I really like, and send it to an "expert" to make certain modifications to suit my taste. This worked wonderfully with a Southard AVO that I had "customized" to my taste by Josh at REK. Now...THIS was a great knife. Pic below.
Of course I sold it. I got bored after I carried it for two yrs; time for something else. Presently planning mods to a new Slysz Bowie...still with REK; should be fun.
 
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Take for instance the Sharpfinger from Schrade.

It's been around forever. It was once made in the USA of pretty good stuff.

Now, it's owned and made by somebody overseas of very inferior materials.

If I have one of our custom makers brew me up one in M390 with carbon fiber scales, which one of you is going to cry foul?

And which one of you makers will refuse to produce it for me?

Serious question here. I want to know.
 
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I love Opinels, I had/have/have lost/offered dozens of them in my life as a Frenchman and...
I wanted to have a tribute knife made in my new homeland, Canada, that I will use everyday as my paring/food prep kitchen knife. Not to be put in a linty pocket but to be a casual tool for my daily subsistance.

I'd have bought one from the original designer/manufacturer but Opinel:

- does not offer fixed version of their folders
- is not offering a slightly narrower, slightly longer blade
- does not offer various steels, as 1095 for the instance here
- Does not offer to choose the wood I wanted for the handle, Canadian maple here

Knife is unique, cost me 25 opinels haha, there is no maker's mark and there will never be another one ever made, from my knife maker at least.
I perceive this as a very personal, respectful tribute to a knife that has been following me almost every day of the past 30 ys.

So here I am standing in front of you, gentlemen.

Am I guilty of counterfeiting? Or not?


1Z1dExHh.jpg
 
Your's is a "one-off" knife and you're not a salesman. No, you're not counterfeiting. Remember that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. Perhaps you should send a pic to Opinel and tell 'em this is what you SHOULD offer to real lovers of the product. Of course, then you'd get slapped across the face with a white glove and have to show up at a duel with some sharpshooter French dude. Scratch that idea.
I marvel at how you love that knife so very much. It seems like most folks here really love Opinel. I only have one; the ebony $65 model, but never have warmed up to it. I know it's good; it's just not for me.
But I admire the "spirit" of what you've done and you get a back-pat from me, sir.
 
Sonnydaze said:
Your's is a "one-off" knife and you're not a salesman. No, you're not counterfeiting. Remember that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. Perhaps you should send a pic to Opinel and tell 'em this is what you SHOULD offer to real lovers of the product. Of course, then you'd get slapped across the face with a white glove and have to show up at a duel with some sharpshooter French dude. Scratch that idea.
I marvel at how you love that knife so very much. It seems like most folks here really love Opinel. I only have one; the ebony $65 model, but never have warmed up to it. I know it's good; it's just not for me.
But I admire the "spirit" of what you've done and you get a back-pat from me, sir.
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Thank you very much for these kind words, sir! :)
 
If you pay for a private copy or redesign of anything, you are not guilty of anything. If you make anything to the specifications of a customer, you are not guilty of anything. If you take a design or technical innovation of someone and make copies to make profit while not compensating the person for their hard work and ideas, you are guilty of something.

Making anything for yourself is making something for yourself. If I could make a blade to replace the one in the knife I like to have a better steel, I have done nothing wrong. If I modify my Windows 7 OS to make my computer how I want, too bad for MS. I have done nothing wrong as long as I don't resell it. If I put a better fuel injection system in my car, too bad for the car manufacturer as I have done nothing wrong. If I paid for it, it is mine to do what I want.

As far as the comments go such as "Any self respecting knife maker would not do this", I translate that to say "Any stuck up self important artiste would not lower themselves to help a customer". I have no problem if someone does not want to do something, but to evaluate their decision as being a moral decision is a bit much.
 
Aldebaran said:
If you pay for a private copy or redesign of anything, you are not guilty of anything. If you make anything to the specifications of a customer, you are not guilty of anything. If you take a design or technical innovation of someone and make copies to make profit while not compensating the person for their hard work and ideas, you are guilty of something.

Making anything for yourself is making something for yourself. If I could make a blade to replace the one in the knife I like to have a better steel, I have done nothing wrong. If I modify my Windows 7 OS to make my computer how I want, too bad for MS. I have done nothing wrong as long as I don't resell it. If I put a better fuel injection system in my car, too bad for the car manufacturer as I have done nothing wrong. If I paid for it, it is mine to do what I want.

As far as the comments go such as "Any self respecting knife maker would not do this", I translate that to say "Any stuck up self important artiste would not lower themselves to help a customer". I have no problem if someone does not want to do something, but to evaluate their decision as being a moral decision is a bit much.
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:) I entirely agree ! But don't let them get your goat :mad:. Just ignore the stoopid posts or utilize the "ignore " setting . No logic will avail you . Be cool and precede towards your goals .

Your project is entirely feasible , if you have the cash to put down up front . Some knife makers are in business to make money rather than moral or artistic protests. However I do agree with those that suggest it might be fun to work with a maker to come up with something unique while using your model as the starting point . Makers tend to do better when they're interested in a project .:cool:
 
Aldebaran said:
If you pay for a private copy or redesign of anything, you are not guilty of anything. If you make anything to the specifications of a customer, you are not guilty of anything. If you take a design or technical innovation of someone and make copies to make profit while not compensating the person for their hard work and ideas, you are guilty of something.

Making anything for yourself is making something for yourself. If I could make a blade to replace the one in the knife I like to have a better steel, I have done nothing wrong. If I modify my Windows 7 OS to make my computer how I want, too bad for MS. I have done nothing wrong as long as I don't resell it. If I put a better fuel injection system in my car, too bad for the car manufacturer as I have done nothing wrong. If I paid for it, it is mine to do what I want.

As far as the comments go such as "Any self respecting knife maker would not do this", I translate that to say "Any stuck up self important artiste would not lower themselves to help a customer". I have no problem if someone does not want to do something, but to evaluate their decision as being a moral decision is a bit much.
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I agree with everything you have written .Let me add this ............... I intend to paint Mona Lisa . I just wait approval from Leonardo da Vinci
 
In the service we had two ways of approaching this problem.

First, "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission." Once it's done, it's done. They'll get over it.

Second, UNODIR: "UNless Otherwise DIRected" Go ahead and do what you want, but make sure the opportunity to stop you has already passed. Send a letter to Leonardo da Vinci telling him you''re going to copy the Mona Lisa. If he doesn't reply in time to tell you no, you're gold!
 
Aldebaran said:
As far as the comments go such as "Any self respecting knife maker would not do this", I translate that to say "Any stuck up self important artiste would not lower themselves to help a customer". I have no problem if someone does not want to do something, but to evaluate their decision as being a moral decision is a bit much.
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Well, I understand this. Most makers have certain models that they make, and many of them only want to experiment as the spirit moves them to do so. There is a strong creative aspect to custom knifemaking, so it's understandable when some makers would prefer to not become contract work machine shops.
 
Aldebaran said:
The Shirogorov knives certainly look like what I would want, but the price is way out of my comfort zone. I know, it is naive of me to think I can get a special blade made for cheap, I was just wishing out loud.
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Well bad news; if you approached someone to make a knife like that cold as a one off it would cost a lot more. Hand built custom folders are inherently expensive. At least with that blade it's all ready in production.
 
Exactly. If the Shiro is out of your budget, it's entirely likely that a one off custom build is also out of your budget.
 
Aren't there kind people out there who make custom made to order blades just for free to "get their name out there"?

If there aren't there should be!
 
You never know till you ask. Generally it helps if it is an older or discontinued design, and if you allow the maker a little artistic vision. I've seen custom copies of nearly every 20th century military knife, Gerber MkII's, Marble's Woodcrafts, Cold Steel tantos, the Al Mar Warrior, etc..... Heck, most of the big name slip joint makers up until recently usually made their bones copying old factory designs.
 
NJBillK said:
Taken from the Natrix vs. Matrix thread and I am sure lawyers on both sides have looked into this, but:
"A knife design, how it looks, is neither an invention nor a branding element. So it may be possible to patent a locking mechanism, which happens all of the time (and is relevant later in the story of the Natrix), but it is not possible to patent a knife design. I suppose a sufficiently complex and different knife might be eligible for patent protection, something like the Caswell Linkage karambit, but it would a rarity."

So, while it may be frowned upon, making a design that takes the shape of another knife, seems within the realm of legal (I am sure there are circumstances and examples on both sides of the argument).

Would I personally do it, No.
Would another, Possibly.
Would I expect one to do it, Absolutely not.
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Read about -design patent
 
Aldebaran said:
I see what you are saying, but I am not paying for a direct copy of a knife, I want a different blade steel with some refinements. This is not much different than going to a muffler shop and asking for a copy of the exhaust to be replicated but in a larger diameter. I am not asking anyone to copy a design and then market it. If I were to make the copy of the blade myself and just for me, that is not illegal nor even immoral.
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You may be able to find a maker who will refit your handle with a new blade made from the steel of choice. That way they aren't really making an unauthorized copy of an existing design but rather replacing the blade with a better version. This is done with some boker kwaikens but the blade style is usually changed a bit.
 
Liong Mah released a mid-tech version of his own GSD design which was produced by CRKT first. There was also a custom version but I don't know how it fits into that chronology. Emerson also has custom versions of his production models as does Rick Hinderer, Shirogorov and Fiddleback Forge. Although this isn't a direct response to your question perhaps there another version of the knife you like.
 
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