Damasteel Wakizashi

Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

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I posted a thread in the sword form, but think I might get a better response here.

What are you chaps thoughts on doing a damasteel wakizashi

I received two batches of steel this week.
One batch was my order of six pieces of one meter long bars of Hitachi katana steel from Dictum ( white paper edge steel honsanmai with the sanmai sides in suminagashi). These will obviously become Japanese style swords and knives.

The other batch was four bars of Hugin pattern damasteel from a group buy with Ron Wilson.
When unwrapping the bars of damasteel ( 48" long bars) I swung one around jokingly, and then thought , "What about making a wakizashi in Damasteel?" I know it is in no way traditional, but it sure would look stunning. A katana would be just too crazy, but a wak might work.

My concern is the likelihood of selling it. I have made more than one knife/sword that everyone picked up and said, "Wow, that is really something.", only to set it down and look at more normal ( and cheaper) knives/swords.. Some nice things just don't sell fast. The costly steel will obviously add a good bit to the price. I figure it will end up around $1200-1500 depending on the koshirae.

So,
Comments?
Thoughts?
Am I crazy to do this?( well, maybe we better not go there :) )
 
can you forge that damasteel? or is that going to be stock removal only?
 
Hmmm... hard one. I want to say yes just so that I can see it, but if I was personally plopping down large cash on a Wakizashi it would be because I was paying for labor and materials to go as true to traditional as possible (sort of buying history reborn I guess). I guess that makes me exactly the type of person you'd worry about. Not sure I can speak for others.
 
timos- said:
can you forge that damasteel? or is that going to be stock removal only?
Click to expand...

You can forge it to some degree, but I usually just forge in the sori on a billet like this. The hugin pattern is a tight ladder/lace pattern, which will make a bit of a wave activity along the edge when the bevels are shaped, so it doesn't need much more than the curve. These bars are actually a little wider than I want for a wakizashi, so I could just grind in the sori if I wanted to, but I like to get most every sword in the forge at least a few times. As I explain below, it makes the pattern have better flow. Even when it would appear that it won't show, the human eye can spot the most minute variance.

On damascus bars that have a linear pattern or a contrasting strip along the edge ( highly manipulated patterns and mosaics), I forge the kissaki up so the edge follows to the tip. With care, you can do it on most types of billets. You have to work gently and at near welding heat. You then grind or cut off the raised excess and the pattern will now follow the whole blade.

I almost cry when I see a blade that the maker took a bar of nice feather pattern or other mosaic damascus and merely shaped the blade on the grinder. In a random or vertical pattern, you might get away with it, but with almost all mosaic and linear patterns this makes the pattern walk off the blade below the tip and the whole end looks really bad. Feather pattern shows it the worst. Forging up the tip, and any blade curvature, will make the pattern curve with the sword/knife, which is important for visual flow ... especially at the tip.

While doing some looking through my stack of blade sketches I draw up for future projects, I came across a yataghan project I wanted to do someday. It was going to have an ivory handle with brass, silver and gemstone fittings. I have a bag of large, high grade, green tourmaline cabochons that would work great. I had noted that the blade should be in something like honsanmai or warikomi - hard edge, soft or medium steel spine, and soft sides. However, the damasteel I have is the perfect size for the blade width and thickness, and the pattern has a Turkish look to it. I may consider doing that project in Damasteel, too.
 
lanternnate said:
Hmmm... hard one. I want to say yes just so that I can see it, but if I was personally plopping down large cash on a Wakizashi it would be because I was paying for labor and materials to go as true to traditional as possible (sort of buying history reborn I guess). I guess that makes me exactly the type of person you'd worry about. Not sure I can speak for others.
Click to expand...


That is my concern, too.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
My concern is the likelihood of selling it. I have made more than one knife/sword that everyone picked up and said, "Wow, that is really something.", only to set it down and look at more normal ( and cheaper) knives/swords.. Some nice things just don't sell fast. The costly steel will obviously add a good bit to the price. I figure it will end up around $1200-1500 depending on the koshirae.
Click to expand...

Truth be told if you were to make something like that just as I happened to have $1,200-1,500 in my pocket, it would be sorely tempting to me to buy it. But that only happens once a year, and there's usually lots of conflicting purchases vying for the dollars. Which I would guess is probably pretty common among the people who might buy your piece.

The other challenge is that it's not a hugely usable piece. As much as it would tempt me, it'd be very difficult to justify buying it because I would have no real use for it other than looking at it. And if I displayed it at home, it wouldn't be safe around my kids. If I displayed it at work, it might walk off.

I'm guessing that's a lot to do with why smaller knives move faster.

The only time I could have said without a doubt that I'd have bought that was in the year before I got married. I had a lot of one-time cash and did in fact buy a custom sword to cut the wedding cake.

But that was a once-in-a-lifetime experience. So as much as I'd love to see you make a Damasteel wakizashi, I'd agree that you'd have trouble moving it.

But I'm no expert in the high-end market, so YMMV.
 
Yes, and the flip side is that I can make two or three $500-750 kitchen blades from the same piece of steel. Those will sell much quicker and easier than the sword .... but the sword would be soooo cool.
 
I wonder if something in the sci-fi/fantasy realm might have more marketability to the collectors in that space who obviously wouldn't be concerned about ties to tradition. Basically would something wakizashi inspired but intentionally overall done modern have a bigger market than a completely traditional blade with a modern piece of steel? I still doubt it would sell as easy three nice kitchen knives... I just really want to see it made anyways though :p
 
Stacy my wife won't let me buy it but then I got in trouble for buying a new folder last week.
I would live to see it though.
 
It sounds like a great project, and the sort of thing I'd love doing. However it also kinda seems like the sort of project that would live on my desk, and never make me any money.... Those can be nice on occasion though. It just strikes me as the sort of project that would be more for personal enjoyment than something easily sold. I'm sure someone would buy it eventually though.
 
Yes, it is entirely likely that the sword would end up sitting in my living room with the other swords and unmounted sword blades ( they sit in corners, by the fireplace, against the wall, and by the front door). Doing a damasteel wakizashi would be really cool for guests to discover, but pretty expensive for a mere decoration.

Everyones comments from Bladeforums, and some other discussions with friends, have supported my main concern that if it is a Japanese style sword it would likely be used for cutting. Damasteel should do that just fine, but it wouldn't be as good as the ones forged from in Hitachi white paper edge steel. No purpose in making it in the damasteel if you can make it in something else that will work better. Since I will be forging several diasho in the Hitachi white paper edge katana steel, I'll let that be my main Japanese efforts. They should be superb cutters.


I have decided to do the yataghan project in the damasteel. If it cuts really well, maybe I'll revisit the wakizashi idea later on.

I will try and do a WIP as I get the project going. I will post it here as well as in shop talk. I never rush a sword project, so it may be a good while before you see anything beyond sketches about this project. I have sword blades I forged 10 years ago in the corner waiting for the bug to strike me to do the fittings.

Thanks for letting me bounce thus off you chaps.
 
I look forward to seeing it! I've got a wakizashi laying around the shop somewhere I've just never really felt like finishing the grind on. Large and fancy bowies are probably my favorite thing to make, but most of my time is spent on bird and trout knives, small Skinner's, fillet knives and kitchen knives. It's just so much easier to sell
 
I suppose one argument in favor of making it would have been as a maker's display piece. It'd definitely be eye-catching at Blade or The Gathering or one of the other big shows, and some good photography would make a web site really pop.
 
madcap_magician said:
I suppose one argument in favor of making it would have been as a maker's display piece. It'd definitely be eye-catching at Blade or The Gathering or one of the other big shows, and some good photography would make a web site really pop.
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And when people ask how much tell them oh it's not for sale, this is just my display piece, and by the end of the day people will be throwing stupid numbers at you for it because you said they can't have it :D
 
I may be way off base but I believe, due to the current trend toward Japanese style blades with non-traditional materials and fittings, that someone would buy it. Who knows, it may even start a trend. It could also be picked 10,000 times, oohed, & ahhed over and put back on the table.
Only one way to find out. When you gonna get started? LOL
 
Dang, now you guys have me thinking wakizashi again.

I can do the yataghan in carbon damascus, and have plenty of bars sitting in the shop to forge out. IIRC, I still have a piece of 3/4" round twisted damascus I could draw out for it.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Dang, now you guys have me thinking wakizashi again.

I can do the yataghan in carbon damascus, and have plenty of bars sitting in the shop to forge out. IIRC, I still have a piece of 3/4" round twisted damascus I could draw out for it.
Click to expand...

Compromise.... damasteel tantos! Make one with traditional mountings and one with modern fittings!
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Dang, now you guys have me thinking wakizashi again.

I can do the yataghan in carbon damascus, and have plenty of bars sitting in the shop to forge out. IIRC, I still have a piece of 3/4" round twisted damascus I could draw out for it.
Click to expand...
If no one has ever before done wakizashi in Damasteel , I say do it . . . .People like to have one of a kind things :)
 
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