Forging press, speed vs tons

I like the speed and tonnage of nicks press in this video.
Nick's press looks a lot like my Imagination Xpress,so it may not have the power you think it does. What he has is a number of very aggressive drawing dies.
 
My current setup uses VERRY aggressive dies. The drawing dies are made from the shanks of 1" diameter HSS end mills. But once I put in the flat dies work comes to just about a screeching hault once you loose temp. I rounded the edges of the flat dies and take bites out of the billets but this creates a taper of sorts. So his press looks amazing compared to mine lol
 
I can only seam to find 22/7GPM two stage pumps, or do you mean 22gpm ran at 1725=11gpm?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Yes, that was a 22GPM at 3600RPM/11GPM at 1750RPM. The second stage will be about one third of the high speed. I have a 28GPM two stage for when I rebuild my press. With an automated foot pedal, it will be like a slow power hammer ... with a 24 ton hammer.
 
Thanks Stacy,
I also noticed the 28gpm pump and wondered how that would work. The second stage is the same speed as the 22GPM but it has a tad faster high end.
 
So this brings up another question. I have the power capacity to run a 10HP motor but thy are a tad harder to find then 5HP motors. Could you run dule motors and pumps into the same cylinder. I don't know how much money you would save in the end if any considering surplus center has a nice 10HP for around a grand.
 
JT I'm going to build a press once I move into my new place and get settled in. While I admit I don't have all the mechanics down, I have put some time into the logistics of it. While I have used a press and know some folks that have them, most of my thinking is derived from that thread you are talking about that Larry posted before his shop burnt down.

To me everything he states in that thread makes perfect sense. Speed is greater than tonnage. Both are important but I look at it like this; a press is just two big quench plates stealing your heat. So if I had to favor only one it would be speed. There have been similar threads posted on here as well.

My plan sounds similar to yours.

Important bits:
5HP (Preferably 10) Single Phase
Minimum of 3IPS
Single Stage Pump
Large Reservoir
Steel Clad Hoses
Pressure Relief Valve

I'm going to buy Dr. Batson's book and a motor first. I'll then plug in the numbers based on the biggest single phase motor I can get and start calculating and picking up the rest of the gear. I'm going to do a little more poking around but right now I'm set on a beefed up C frame.

As far as dual motors, 50+ Tons, etc... I think there is a point where your ROI makes it impractical to go with too much overkill. If you look at the big damascus makers I'm aware of, based on shop tours and photos and what not, they don't seem to invest their tool budget in giant presses, from what i can tell they invest it all in sexy Nazel's!

Ill start a thread once I get into my place and get some free time. Probably late next month. Until then I will be following you all and see how yours turn out!

-Clint
 
What I mean by duel pumps and motors was to get around having to buy a 10HP as the 2 5HP could be cheeper. You would scale the pumps and ram to give you the same tons as the 10HP motor and pump.
 
I think that just adds unnecessary points of failure or problems, especially with how cheap you can buy 10HP motors. For around 500 you could get two new 3ph motors and use the other as a RPC to power the press. I may be able to get a 1ph real cheap through a family member. If not I'll probably go the 3ph route.

-Clint
 
Last edited:
Using two power packs with 2 cylinders can cause problems with balancing between the cylinders, as the manufacturing and efficiency differences between the two can cause slight differences in travel speed. In an extreme example, one side moves slightly faster than the other in both extension and retraction, so that every cycle the slower side gets further and further behind until the deviation is extreme enough to notice or cause mechanical failure of the press (depending on how it's constructed).

Using two power packs on a single cylinder would be less of a balancing issue and more of a circuitry issue. You'd need a circuit design that prevented backflow from the more efficient side to the less efficient side, and I have a feeling building this circuit would end up costing more than the single power pack with 2x the power.

These are the reasons that every piece of hydraulic equipment (that I know of anyway) are generally powered by a single motor and pump. Where this isn't the case, such as in skidsteers or other equipment, you have a single engine and multiple pumps, but those pumps are isolated to their own individual hydraulic circuits, like the skidsteer example, a single gearotor pump for driving the lift arm cylinders and bucket tilt cylinders, and a variable displacement piston pump either in a tandem unit or a separate one for each drive wheel side. But, those circuits are isolated from each other and differences in pump speed or efficiency doesn't affect the equipment or is compensated for by the operator.

More I'm speaking to industrial presses. Brake presses, 4 post presses, etc. One motor, one pump.

Not that it can't be done, or isn't done somewhere, for example tandem brake presses where you slave one brake press end to end with another to effectively get a longer press, just that the design considerations become more complex than necessary in this case I think.
 
Last edited:
JT I'm going to build a press once I move into my new place and get settled in. While I admit I don't have all the mechanics down, I have put some time into the logistics of it. While I have used a press and know some folks that have them, most of my thinking is derived from that thread you are talking about that Larry posted before his shop burnt down.

To me everything he states in that thread makes perfect sense. Speed is greater than tonnage. Both are important but I look at it like this; a press is just two big quench plates stealing your heat. So if I had to favor only one it would be speed. There have been similar threads posted on here as well.

My plan sounds similar to yours.

Important bits:
5HP (Preferably 10) Single Phase
Minimum of 3IPS
Single Stage Pump
Large Reservoir
Steel Clad Hoses
Pressure Relief Valve

I'm going to buy Dr. Batson's book and a motor first. I'll then plug in the numbers based on the biggest single phase motor I can get and start calculating and picking up the rest of the gear. I'm going to do a little more poking around but right now I'm set on a beefed up C frame.

As far as dual motors, 50+ Tons, etc... I think there is a point where your ROI makes it impractical to go with too much overkill. If you look at the big damascus makers I'm aware of, based on shop tours and photos and what not, they don't seem to invest their tool budget in giant presses, from what i can tell they invest it all in sexy Nazel's!

Ill start a thread once I get into my place and get some free time. Probably late next month. Until then I will be following you all and see how yours turn out!

-Clint

In searching I found that Larry sold Mareko Maumasi a press and I think it's the press in this video. He also has a video of his old press. The new press looks quite nice.

New press

Compare the cylinder size of his new press to the one on this one. The new one is mech smaller.

Old press
 
It is a nice press and I believe he paid ~10k for it. If memory serves me right the one he built for Dave Lisch is even bigger than that one and more expensive.

As much as I would love to have a press like that I just can't justify the money. If I had 10k to spend on forging equipment I think I would rather put it towards a bigger hammer and buy or build a smaller press. But if I can manage the 10HP motor and the hydraulics to go with it for a reasonable price, I think that will be more than sufficient when combined with a bigger hammer. I just like the idea of having both, a lot of versatility between the two.

-Clint
 
One option I am exploring is putting a gas powered electric start motor outside in the equipment shed and running hydraulic lines into the shop and press.
A Honda Twin-V at 3600RPM can run a big ass single stage pump and drive a 5" piston at fast speed with tons of pressure ( literally). How heavy the frame is may be the major concern of a build like this.
They are rated at 16.5Kw output at 3600RPM, which if my math is right is the same as a 22HP electric motor. They are pretty quiet. They are governed and will keep 3600RPM under load or no-load.

A second option is to leave the motor on the press in the shop and run a 3" exhaust hose with a blower fan in the line from the muffler out the shop door. ( Small HF type dust collector blower unit).

The big plus is even power under load, and no need for a 50 amp circuit or power consumption.

An 11HP single cylinder Honda would run most presses just fine, too. That is what is on mine now, and it delivers around 30 tons. The Twin-V unit is just a thought, as I have come across them from time to time at a great price. They run around $1100 new.
 
I know Ed Caffrey has a diesel power pack outside his shop for the 80 ton. It makes the press spooky quiet compared to the average forging press
 
Yea, I love a good press don't get me wrong but personally before Id pay 10k-12K for one I have a new Anyang 120.. though it easier to find space for a press than it is a big hammer for most folks
 
I started thinking gas engine more and more and it makes sence if your looking at going above 5hp. The 10hp motor I was looking at is around a grand so bumping up to somthing like the Honda v-twin is not unpractical. I love the idea of having the motor and pump out side. Is calculating pump HP for a gas engine the same as an electric motor?
 
Batson told me to use the ratio of 2:1 for calculations. A 10HP gas motor develops about what a 5HP electric does on a press. 11 HP gas runs most presses fine.

The Honda Twin-V is rated in output wattage, so it's 16.5Kw is about the same as a 20HP electric. With a 28 GPM pump, it should push a 6" bore cylinder in its sleep. A 6" bore/11" stroke cylinder runs around $400.

As I said earlier, the issue with building things this big is the frame. It would have to be really big. Probably a 12X12 I beam for the sides and cross braces. Welding and bracing would have to be properly done, too. At 30-50 tons, things come apart pretty easily. Stress fatigue on the welds is also an issue, which is why it needs to be overbuilt.
 
It is a nice press and I believe he paid ~10k for it. If memory serves me right the one he built for Dave Lisch is even bigger than that one and more expensive.

As much as I would love to have a press like that I just can't justify the money. If I had 10k to spend on forging equipment I think I would rather put it towards a bigger hammer and buy or build a smaller press. But if I can manage the 10HP motor and the hydraulics to go with it for a reasonable price, I think that will be more than sufficient when combined with a bigger hammer. I just like the idea of having both, a lot of versatility between the two.

-Clint
For some folks, a hammer is not an option. A big press may make a lot of loud, whiny noise, but it does not shake the ground and really piss off your neighbors ;)
 
I decided to go with a gas motor for my press. I'm hoping to get to work on it finally in the next couple weeks. I have a 12.5hp gas motor from a donor lawnmower.
 
Does having the power pack so far away affect the GPM you are able to deliver to the cylinder?
 
Back
Top