Grinding... Zero to Hero

[LARRYZ10]

A lot of professional knife makers use work rests but not jigs. I use a rest on every knife and always have. It steadies the fingers and makes for a smoother pass while grinding. When looking at a finished knife what matters most to me is how well finished the knife is and not whether the blade was ground without a rest. Just my opinion. Larry

 

[LINESIX]

For those of you that watch YouTube, Mike form Ekim Knives made a video on this subject like four days ago. What are the odds? He talks about how knife makers don't admit to using them and such. In his opinion, learning how to freehand first is important if you want to "get the most out of using a jig," later on. The video is 13 minutes long, but it's worth sitting through because he's sharing a good amount of his knowledge/opinions.

 

[Howard1]

Well, it looks like I might as well make myself comfortable by the grinder, seeing how it will be a little while before I get it. Paying attention to my body posture and tucking my elbows into my sides really made a world of difference. Thanks for the reply.



Glad to know that I'm not the only one that visualizes the approach. Sometimes I have to think about how the steel is getting removed by the belt, where the bevel meets the flat, and what speed the draw across the belt is. I'm sure to an extent it will become second nature to me. For now though, it's just awkward. I'll tell you what though... grinding is a lot like meditation. Focusing on body posture, blade angle, hand pressure, draw speed, belt speed, ect. It's impossible for me to think about anything else besides grinding when I'm at the belt.



I'll keep that in mind. I figured that a worn belt would be safer to make a bevel than a fresh one because I imagined it would take away less metal. Now that I think about it, I can see why a worn belt would be no bueno. Thanks for that tip.



That thing is expensive for a jig! It looks really simple... I bet I could make one. Do you know anybody that has made their own and have positive results with it?

Don't try to make one!!! I can send you mine. It looks great and does work but it is like using any cheap tool. Fred from The Bubble Jig has already created every bad version. His tool is amazing. It still forces you to do everything right, elbows in,arms locked,flat the blade on the platen and don't lift up. Yes you will learn all that on your own but this cuts the time and wasted steel down significantly. Most importantly Fred is a great and willing teacher. The best $79 I have ever spent.

 

[LINESIX]

With your time and steel you can do as you want But ,did you ever think that you could never master this technique? What then ? Can you show us some pictures of blade you already grind ? If you think that with jig it's easy , I challenge you to grind one and show to us I think you will be surprised and see that it is not easy even with jig . I'm sorry, I do not have any advice to give you around grinding , I'm a beginner too... only to be persistent . .. . .

 

[coldsteelburns]

I do understand how you feel LINESIX, I have the same feeling towards personally using a jig. It has nothing to do with whether or not other people use them, and I have absolutely nothing against anybody that does, as it is completely logical to do so if you get better results.

That said, I simply want(ed) to learn to free hand grind because, after all, knife making is a skill set, and a big part of the fun for me is trying to perfect my skills. If I made knives for my livelihood and made several of the same knives over and over, or made folding knives, I might feel differently. I have used them in the past, but I want to at least know that I have the ability to make nice, clean grinds and do it consistently without the need of a jig. Once I reach a point that I feel I can grind any type of blade cleanly and consistency, it might not matter to me anymore since I'll know that if I choose to use them then, I can still do it without the aid of one, and may find them to be more efficient. As I mentioned, it's just the way I feel personally a goal of mine to have this confidence in my ability. I will however, still use a jig if I am gonna do a zero ground scandi grind as I never really do them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On a side note...

The bubble jig may 'seem' expensive for what it is, but it is very well made and it can potentially save you a lot of time and money by helping to teach you good grinding habits, as opposed to wasting a lot of material by guessing the angle every time, as I used to do. It really helps you get the feel for getting and keeping the proper angle along the entire bevel, and on both sides.

You can sort of compare the bubble jig to using training wheels when learning to ride a bike. It helps you understand learn how riding a bike upright should feel and helps give a bit of confidence, as opposed to starting without them and simple falling off crashing (and crying) tons of times before you begin to get the feel of it.

The crying analogy can become a reality in knife making at times lol.

So if you think about it, it's really not that expensive. If you can't afford the entire set, he also sells it without his file guide for a lesser price, which is how I bought it when I got mine probably over 5 years ago. I just made my own file jig to use it with.


~Paul
My YT Channel
Lsubslimed
... (It's been a few years since my last upload)

 

[timos-]

If I were to make 50 or even 20 of the same knife I would probably figure out some kind of fixture or jig, but that would take the fun out for me. I think im around 80 blades or so ground in the last 4 ish years. I still feel like i get better with each one. the plunge is the hardest, I still try to match them free hand but have not gotten one perfect yet (although close!). For me it helps alot to draw the bevel on there with a sharpy. I also will use an extra finger or to as an anchor on the back side of the platen to act as a tool rest. I also have my platen at a 45 deg. angle so I can see and feel better.

 

[Kevin McGovern]

If I were to make 50 or even 20 of the same knife I would probably figure out some kind of fixture or jig, but that would take the fun out for me. I think im around 80 blades or so ground in the last 4 ish years. I still feel like i get better with each one. the plunge is the hardest, I still try to match them free hand but have not gotten one perfect yet (although close!). For me it helps alot to draw the bevel on there with a sharpy. I also will use an extra finger or to as an anchor on the back side of the platen to act as a tool rest. I also have my platen at a 45 deg. angle so I can see and feel better.

Bro, get a file guide. It's also useful for other things, like filing shoulders on hidden tangs.

 

[J. Rosa]

No work rest here and it took 10 to get an idea of what I should be doing, 20 more to do it right, and another 20 to do things like tapered tangs, false edges, and compound grinds, without constantly"fixing things". And yes there are still some fixes to be made from time to time

 

[timos-]

Bro, get a file guide. It's also useful for other things, like filing shoulders on hidden tangs.

I do have one, just dont like it really. They are great for keeping the plunges at same angle/position on each side of blade. But there is still that pesky little transition of the plunge that I can never quite match up. One side is always lightly more square than the other

 

[Kevin McGovern]

Ah
I got you. When I have that issue it's usually either not having the belt the same on / off platen on both sides, I'm angling the knife when working the plunge unevenly, or the belt is kaput on one side.

 

[bike4fun919]

For those of you that watch YouTube, Mike form Ekim Knives made a video on this subject like four days ago. What are the odds? He talks about how knife makers don't admit to using them and such. In his opinion, learning how to freehand first is important if you want to "get the most out of using a jig," later on. The video is 13 minutes long, but it's worth sitting through because he's sharing a good amount of his knowledge/opinions.

Thanks for the link to Ekim Knives. This guy is fantastic. His series on how to make a knife is worth the watching several times, IMHO>

 

[LINESIX]

Thanks for the link to Ekim Knives. This guy is fantastic. His series on how to make a knife is worth the watching several times, IMHO>

I completely agree. Walter Sorrels has a lot of amazing tutorials too. If you haven't checked him out yet, I suggest it.

 

[bike4fun919]

I completely agree. Walter Sorrels has a lot of amazing tutorials too. If you haven't checked him out yet, I suggest it.

I have watched Walter Sorrels and he is very good. However the Ekim Knives guy gives such practical easy to follow instructions. After watching his 12 step (if I remember correctly) knife making tutorial I felt I was more prepared to grind my next knife. For instance I never thought about the different grinding planes that might develop and how to compensate for that. Plus he is such a likable fellow that doesn't seem to take himself so seriously and obviously loves making knives and sharing his passion. His first shop in that metal building is a hoot!

 

[Kevin McGovern]

I got started (and still watch) on a steady diet of Ekim, Walter Sorrells and Aaron Gough. I recommend Walter Sorrells channel even to people not interested in knife making, He's just really entertaining regardless.

 

[v8r]

Just a thought.....some people consider stock removal as cheating.
I used to be a machinist, and we used a jig for lots of operations to have repeatable results. I don't see anything wrong with using a jig. To me it can still be quite difficult to achieve a symmetrical blade using one. There is still skill involved no matter what your preferred method is.

 

[Huntsman Knife Co.]

I've been making knives for 4 years and I'm still not great at grinding. Its something I thought would be resolved within the first few months of full time making but it never really goes away. After all this time grinding every knife is still a war and theres a decent chance I could screw up the blade and have to toss it.

Here's my advice

- Make a jig. I have a ton of respect for guys that freehand grind blades but at the end of the day we are all human. No matter how good we are, we all get tired, we all zone out, and we all make mistakes. You have to be able to freehand grind to be a knife maker, but using a jig for certain models can really cut down on lost blades and not to mention anxiety and stress. Losing a blade is never fun and we should take every step we can to prevent it.

- Learn to deal with failure. Even with a jig, CNC, whatever method you use, there will always be failure. One of the hardest aspects of knife making is dealing with constant failure. When I started, I thought it was just me and everyone else was able to nail these perfect grinds 100% of the time. Then I saw a Nick Wheeler WIP where he made some mistakes and had to redo several steps on his knife. This is Nick Wheeler we're talking about! At that point I learned that everyone, no matter how skilled or learned they are will make mistakes and end up with some blades in the trash can. Failure WILL HAPPEN. But there are steps you can take to prevent and minimize it but when it comes knocking, don't get down on yourself. It's part of the process and no one has a 100% success rate.

- You will never be good enough for yourself but you will be good enough for your customers. I've never made a knife I was happy with. Never. Not even one. There is always some flaw, no matter how insignificant, that will make you question whether or not you should even be making knives. But most of the flaws you see are only flaws to you. A scratch here or there, a small bit of difference in a plunge line-- most of the imperfections you see and torment yourself over will go completely unnoticed by customers. And that is not to say flaws are acceptable. They are not and we should always be working to improve our blades, but if we threw away every flawed knife we would sell zero blades.

So here's a summary of what I've learned. Your blades will suck for a long time. You will not be happy with them. You may never be happy with them. But with time and practice your skill will increase and your knives will get better and better. At some point you'll look back on the first blades you made and say "what the **** was I thinking? That was a passable blade??? That never goes away. Focus on seeking perfection in every blade you grind and making sure that every knife is better than the last one. And if you can, build a jig and use it and focus on consistency in your work. And finally if you can, learn CAD and CAM and use CNC machines to make you knives. They have far fewer errors than we do

 

[v8r]

Well said.
I strive for perfection in the knives I make, but also know I am human. I feel if you are trying to produce a nice product you will.

 

[LINESIX]

Just a thought.....some people consider stock removal as cheating.
I used to be a machinist, and we used a jig for lots of operations to have repeatable results. I don't see anything wrong with using a jig. To me it can still be quite difficult to achieve a symmetrical blade using one. There is still skill involved no matter what your preferred method is.

I know it takes skill to make any kind of decent knife. And for the people that use jigs, more power to them. I'm not saying using jigs is a bad thing, but it is easier to produce consistant grinds using them. If it wasn't, then there'd be no reason to use one at all. There are obviously benefits to using jigs... I'm not denying that. If I was cranking out blades to meet a deadline, or using the craft as a primary source of income, I would use a jig. Using jigs effectively is actually on my list of things I would like to learn. All I'm saying is that I want to learn freehand grinding and develop my feel for it first to build a solid foundation for my future blades.

 

[LINESIX]

I've been making knives for 4 years and I'm still not great at grinding. Its something I thought would be resolved within the first few months of full time making but it never really goes away. After all this time grinding every knife is still a war and theres a decent chance I could screw up the blade and have to toss it.

Here's my advice

- Make a jig. I have a ton of respect for guys that freehand grind blades but at the end of the day we are all human. No matter how good we are, we all get tired, we all zone out, and we all make mistakes. You have to be able to freehand grind to be a knife maker, but using a jig for certain models can really cut down on lost blades and not to mention anxiety and stress. Losing a blade is never fun and we should take every step we can to prevent it.

- Learn to deal with failure. Even with a jig, CNC, whatever method you use, there will always be failure. One of the hardest aspects of knife making is dealing with constant failure. When I started, I thought it was just me and everyone else was able to nail these perfect grinds 100% of the time. Then I saw a Nick Wheeler WIP where he made some mistakes and had to redo several steps on his knife. This is Nick Wheeler we're talking about! At that point I learned that everyone, no matter how skilled or learned they are will make mistakes and end up with some blades in the trash can. Failure WILL HAPPEN. But there are steps you can take to prevent and minimize it but when it comes knocking, don't get down on yourself. It's part of the process and no one has a 100% success rate.

- You will never be good enough for yourself but you will be good enough for your customers. I've never made a knife I was happy with. Never. Not even one. There is always some flaw, no matter how insignificant, that will make you question whether or not you should even be making knives. But most of the flaws you see are only flaws to you. A scratch here or there, a small bit of difference in a plunge line-- most of the imperfections you see and torment yourself over will go completely unnoticed by customers. And that is not to say flaws are acceptable. They are not and we should always be working to improve our blades, but if we threw away every flawed knife we would sell zero blades.

So here's a summary of what I've learned. Your blades will suck for a long time. You will not be happy with them. You may never be happy with them. But with time and practice your skill will increase and your knives will get better and better. At some point you'll look back on the first blades you made and say "what the **** was I thinking? That was a passable blade??? That never goes away. Focus on seeking perfection in every blade you grind and making sure that every knife is better than the last one. And if you can, build a jig and use it and focus on consistency in your work. And finally if you can, learn CAD and CAM and use CNC machines to make you knives. They have far fewer errors than we do

Thank you for the reply. Lots of good info there, I really appreciate the time you took to chime in with your advice.

 

[Fred.Rowe]

Well, it looks like I might as well make myself comfortable by the grinder, seeing how it will be a little while before I get it. Paying attention to my body posture and tucking my elbows into my sides really made a world of difference. Thanks for the reply.



Glad to know that I'm not the only one that visualizes the approach. Sometimes I have to think about how the steel is getting removed by the belt, where the bevel meets the flat, and what speed the draw across the belt is. I'm sure to an extent it will become second nature to me. For now though, it's just awkward. I'll tell you what though... grinding is a lot like meditation. Focusing on body posture, blade angle, hand pressure, draw speed, belt speed, ect. It's impossible for me to think about anything else besides grinding when I'm at the belt.



I'll keep that in mind. I figured that a worn belt would be safer to make a bevel than a fresh one because I imagined it would take away less metal. Now that I think about it, I can see why a worn belt would be no bueno. Thanks for that tip.



That thing is expensive for a jig! It looks really simple... I bet I could make one. Do you know anybody that has made their own and have positive results with it?

Expensive relative to what? What would you spend to take two years off your learning curve? If you saved the cost of your throw aways; what price would you consider fare? This tool not only improves your grinds on day one, it makes all patterns repeatable and it cuts your grinding time almost in half.
The Bubble Jig is a patented product but I would encourage you to try and make one Heck, I'll even give you whatever help you need. I will say that like many things that appear to be very simple to produce, this is one of those. Getting everything to work as a unit is challenging.
We have shipped over 3,000 Bubble Jigs with a money back guarantee, over the last 8 years and have only had one refund; I called the man who returned it, helped him to understand what he was doing wrong; I shipped the tool back to him, no charge.

There is a reason we ship close to 500 of these annually and it's the fact that they work as advertised, with many makers saying its the best money they have spent in the shop.

Let me know if you want to build a Bubble Jig.

Regards, Fred