KA-BAR and WWII

OFFICIAL_KA-BAR

OFFICIAL_KA-BAR

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I am going to be giving a speech on KA-BAR and WWII on Memorial Day at the Eldred World War II Museum (http://eldredpawwiimuseum.com). Prior to working at KA-BAR I was the curator of the Eldred WWII Museum; if you are in to history it is worth checking out. The museum is in a town of about 900 people. There are over 500,000 WWII artifacts, including an 8,000+ volume library and the Mitchell Paige's Medal of Honor and equipment.

I am also going to be covering some of the early history of what is today KA-BAR and will touch on company events leading to the change in name from Union Cutlery to KA-BAR.

What type of information would be of interest to you? The speech itself will be somewhat generic as the venue is not necessarily geared toward a knife-specific audience, but more of a historical and local context.
 
Well since I've been very interested in knives, and sometimes bayonets, from WW2 up to Vietnam and a few beyond, I'm pretty much interested in anything and everything you've mentioned above. So at least you got someone that will be staying tuned in.;)
 
OFFICIAL_KA-BAR said:
I am going to be giving a speech on KA-BAR and WWII on Memorial Day at the Eldred World War II Museum (http://eldredpawwiimuseum.com). Prior to working at KA-BAR I was the curator of the Eldred WWII Museum; if you are in to history it is worth checking out. The museum is in a town of about 900 people. There are over 500,000 WWII artifacts, including an 8,000+ volume library and the Mitchell Paige's Medal of Honor and equipment.

I am also going to be covering some of the early history of what is today KA-BAR and will touch on company events leading to the change in name from Union Cutlery to KA-BAR.

What type of information would be of interest to you? The speech itself will be somewhat generic as the venue is not necessarily geared toward a knife-specific audience, but more of a historical and local context.
Click to expand...

I would love it if you could video your speech and post it right here for all that can't attend.
 
OKB,

Pretty much all of history interests me. Military history in particular. Because in reality much of history is dictated by military events.

Talk or write about Sun Tzu, Alexander, Genghis Khan, Rommel, Merrill, Patton, or many of the rest, and you have my attention.

More specific to KA-BAR, the close fighting in the Pacific Theatre. The implementation of the new knife. Early successes or failures of the design. Anything actually.

Things that keep me reading, are usually bits and pieces from real folks. An historical overview is good. But actual stories and photos from folks who were there, places such events in a much better perspective.

As far as Union Cutlery's transition to KA-BAR. I have read the bear story. How and why they actually moved on the name change would interest me. Perhaps to acquire more business from south of the Mason-Dixon Line?

Also military designs and contracts, relating to how the Mark 1 and Mark 2 came into being. I have read the the military originally based the Mark 2 off the Marble's Ideal.

Hope this helps some, and good luck with your presentation.
 
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LV, the MK2 was based on the KA-BAR/Union Cut model 71 with a 7" blade. Marbles had nothing to do with it. Official KA-BAR, when are you going to accept that the true origin of the company was in Little Valley, N.Y. with the Brown Brothers Razor Company? They merely bought the facility in Tidioute, but they began their company in Little Valley.
 
Crap. I wrote out a whole long thing, and then saw that you are giving the speech on memorial day.. in other words, it already happened...
 
gunsil said:
LV, the MK2 was based on the KA-BAR/Union Cut model 71 with a 7" blade. Marbles had nothing to do with it. Official KA-BAR, when are you going to accept that the true origin of the company was in Little Valley, N.Y. with the Brown Brothers Razor Company? They merely bought the facility in Tidioute, but they began their company in Little Valley.
Click to expand...

Those in attendance heard that in my speech. However, his jobbing company did not start as Brown Brothers Razor Company in 1897. It actually started in 1894 under the name Union Razor Company. Prior to that, at the age of 19, Wallace Brown was a salesman for Robeson Cutlery Company. We don't consider the Brown's sales business to mark the start of manufacturing and looking at old company documents it doesn't appear they did either. What marked the start of the manufacturing side was acquiring the assets of the Tidioute Cutlery Company, who already had a great deal of inventory in Wallace Brown's warehouse in Little Valley. It was at this point the Brown's had the means to actually produce their own products, as opposed to selling other people's products.
 
LostViking said:
OKB,

Pretty much all of history interests me. Military history in particular. Because in reality much of history is dictated by military events.

Talk or write about Sun Tzu, Alexander, Genghis Khan, Rommel, Merrill, Patton, or many of the rest, and you have my attention.

More specific to KA-BAR, the close fighting in the Pacific Theatre. The implementation of the new knife. Early successes or failures of the design. Anything actually.

Things that keep me reading, are usually bits and pieces from real folks. An historical overview is good. But actual stories and photos from folks who were there, places such events in a much better perspective.

As far as Union Cutlery's transition to KA-BAR. I have read the bear story. How and why they actually moved on the name change would interest me. Perhaps to acquire more business from south of the Mason-Dixon Line?

Also military designs and contracts, relating to how the Mark 1 and Mark 2 came into being. I have read the the military originally based the Mark 2 off the Marble's Ideal.

Hope this helps some, and good luck with your presentation.
Click to expand...

One of the biggest issues with the 1219C2 and Mark I was jungle rot. The steel itself was fine, but the leather had a tough time dealing with the harsh jungle environment, much like boots and clothing. As a result, a great deal of theater knives were created with new handles. My favorite example is the Eugene Stone Knife, which we recreated with the help of his son, Bill. I have seen many theater knives firsthand; the ingenuity and improvisation used to create these knives is impressive.
 
The article is pretty accurate, although it contains many errors, AFAIK.

Camillus produced around 2 million, not 1 million. The article skips over 2 or 3 owners between the Brown family and ALCAS.

I suppose the term "USMC Fighting Utility" might be used somewhere, but I never heard of the term, just the 1219C2 designation, which was used until some point when the DOD changed it to some other nomeclature I can never remember and never use.

To my knowledge, the USN MK1 did not come into being until late 1942 or 1943. It's "short-comings" were not the basis for the MK 2. The Marines were working on the MK2 before the MK1 came into production. The MK1 and MK2 were essentially in development to supply a knife for different purposes at the same time. I suspect the terminology "MK2" as assigned to the 1219C2 because "MK1" had already been assigned to the MK1 project before the Navy choose to adopt the 1219C2 for use, in addition to the MK1.

If the NAVY had been so disappointed with all the "deficiencies" listed for the MK1 and shifting over to the "MK2", the Navy would NOT have ended up making several millions of them at multiple companies.

The comments about Western and the L77 and L76 are incorrect. They were NOT in production prior to the war. The 1941 catalog, which came out in the summer of 1941 only had 1 77 model - the 577, with a celluloid handle, s-guard and a 5" blade. There was no 76 model. The L76 was developed to compete with the F-S and the Case commando daggers. Production was short-lived as feed back from the field on the double edge showed that a single edge was preferred by users. That brought out the L77, re-using the Model 77 number, with the L76 guard, a single edged 7" blade and a leather handle. The original 577 shifted to x57 after the war when civilian production resumed.

That's enough picking on the article for now.
 
A wealth of knowledge Thanks zz. I wish you could edit wiki. I enjoyed reading your post Thanks
 
zzyzzogeton said:
The article is pretty accurate, although it contains many errors, AFAIK.

Camillus produced around 2 million, not 1 million. The article skips over 2 or 3 owners between the Brown family and ALCAS.

I suppose the term "USMC Fighting Utility" might be used somewhere, but I never heard of the term, just the 1219C2 designation, which was used until some point when the DOD changed it to some other nomeclature I can never remember and never use.

To my knowledge, the USN MK1 did not come into being until late 1942 or 1943. It's "short-comings" were not the basis for the MK 2. The Marines were working on the MK2 before the MK1 came into production. The MK1 and MK2 were essentially in development to supply a knife for different purposes at the same time. I suspect the terminology "MK2" as assigned to the 1219C2 because "MK1" had already been assigned to the MK1 project before the Navy choose to adopt the 1219C2 for use, in addition to the MK1.

If the NAVY had been so disappointed with all the "deficiencies" listed for the MK1 and shifting over to the "MK2", the Navy would NOT have ended up making several millions of them at multiple companies.

The comments about Western and the L77 and L76 are incorrect. They were NOT in production prior to the war. The 1941 catalog, which came out in the summer of 1941 only had 1 77 model - the 577, with a celluloid handle, s-guard and a 5" blade. There was no 76 model. The L76 was developed to compete with the F-S and the Case commando daggers. Production was short-lived as feed back from the field on the double edge showed that a single edge was preferred by users. That brought out the L77, re-using the Model 77 number, with the L76 guard, a single edged 7" blade and a leather handle. The original 577 shifted to x57 after the war when civilian production resumed.

That's enough picking on the article for now.
Click to expand...

That Wikipedia page has always been a problem. I have tried to edit in the past, but to no avail. Even going from "KA-BAR" to "Camillus" you can see the discrepancies and contradictory information.
 
I have learned to take Wikipedia with a grain of salt. It is a good starting point to seize on references listed. But definitely not the definitive source for accurate information.
 
The original Camillus contract was for the U.S. Navy. Camillus was the last of the four manufactures to get a contract from the U.S. Marine Corps., in the fall of 1943.
 
It's becoming quite obvious. The real expertise is right here. If I could only publish the combined knowledge of the blade forums members. This is passion and we need to harness it.
 
OFFICIAL_KA-BAR said:
Those in attendance heard that in my speech. However, his jobbing company did not start as Brown Brothers Razor Company in 1897. It actually started in 1894 under the name Union Razor Company. Prior to that, at the age of 19, Wallace Brown was a salesman for Robeson Cutlery Company. We don't consider the Brown's sales business to mark the start of manufacturing and looking at old company documents it doesn't appear they did either. What marked the start of the manufacturing side was acquiring the assets of the Tidioute Cutlery Company, who already had a great deal of inventory in Wallace Brown's warehouse in Little Valley. It was at this point the Brown's had the means to actually produce their own products, as opposed to selling other people's products.
Click to expand...

I hear you have recently discovered some info from a Brown family descendant which I think will change your Tidioute rationalization. ALL older KA-BAR/ Union Cut Co. collectors regard the Browns' Little Valley venture as the true origin, not Tidioute. Also this is listed as the origin in Levine's guide, although Mr. Levine is not an infallible source.
 
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