Kabar Original Design Discussion

Thanks Moose,

You're an education on Ka-bars. Cheap as in cheaply made wasn't my intent. Cheap as in folks are getting a hell'va good deal cheaply is what I meant, cheap as in it should cost more, well...I hope you get my idea.

From a knifemakers viewpoint this knive isn't easy to make, primarily due to the fuller. Fullers are a pain to do by hand, getting the fuller aligned with the bevel and spine even more so. The handle is labor intensive, surprisingly. But cutting and shaping the leather, gluing, sanding took a surprisingly long time. It's not a knife I will ever make a lot of.

Changes? Simple things such as a spine that is 1/8 " to 3.16's at the spine with a distal grind, a slightly wider blade, more shallow but equally wide fullers, and a more robust tang. With modern steels and diamond sharpeners, there's also no reason not to bring it up to 60RC, and the spine will be drawn back. The blade will, naturally, be forged. Otherwise, it will look exactly the same. On the one I've made, the balance is almost exactly in front of the guard, the guard will also be slightly thicker also, as I just don't like the look of the original. I didn't weigh it, but at least to me, it's light as a feather. The blade will be unmarked, with the exception of signature, unless you want something else added. As for steel, since you've left it to me, I'll have to think about it. I'll expect you to put it through it paces, and since this started here in the Ka-Bar forum, you'd be quite welcome to post any results you wish. I know that's a big one, so I'd make it as best as I can. We can discuss other aspects through Pm's.
 
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David Stifle said:
Thanks Moose,

You're an education on Ka-bars. Cheap as in cheaply made wasn't my intent. Cheap as in folks are getting a hell'va good deal cheaply is what I meant, cheap as in it should cost more, well...I hope you get my idea.

From a knifemakers viewpoint this knive isn't easy to make, primarily due to the fuller. Fullers are a pain to do by hand, getting the fuller aligned with the bevel and spine even more so. The handle is labor intensive, surprisingly. But cutting and shaping the leather, gluing, sanding took a surprisingly long time. It's not a knife I will ever make a lot of.

Changes? Simple things such as a spine that is 1/8 " to 3.16's at the spine with a distal grind, a slightly wider blade, more shallow but equally wide fullers, and a more robust tang. With modern steels and diamond sharpeners, there's also no reason not to bring it up to 60RC, and the spine will be drawn back. Otherwise, it will look exactly the same. On the one I've made, the balance is almost exactly in front of the guard, the guard will also be slightly thicker also, as I just don't like the look of the original. I didn't weigh it, but at least to me, it's light as a feather. The blade will be unmarked, with the exception of signature, unless you want something else added. As for steel, since you've left it to me, I'll have to think about it. I'll expect you to put it through it paces, and since this started here in the Ka-Bar forum, you'd be quite welcome to post any results you wish. I know that's a big one, so I'd make it as best as I can. We can discuss other aspects through Pm's.
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Sounds good. And I do see where the mistake was made on my part in regards to "cheap". My apologies.

A lot of what you are talking about, sounds like you are dialing it back to its origins, in the Marbles Ideal 7. What a blade that was........I so want that knife back

Hand making a F/U knife would labor intensive. Thank gawd for CNC machines. :D

I look forward to hearing from you.

Moose
 
Moosez45 said:
Sounds good. And I do see where the mistake was made on my part in regards to "cheap". My apologies.

A lot of what you are talking about, sounds like you are dialing it back to its origins, in the Marbles Ideal 7. What a blade that was........I so want that knife back

Hand making a F/U knife would labor intensive. Thank gawd for CNC machines. :D

I look forward to hearing from you.

Moose
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It was a pleasure meeting you and some of the Ka-Bar'ers. Nice forum. I'll give you a shout in about 6 weeks or so.
 
Moosez45 said:
Temper and heat treat play a lot in this debate. D2 uses large carbide to create the wear resistance that it is known for. For items such as hammer bits, the RC is kept low.
Moose
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This :thumbup:

Don't worry, this was I question that I, at one time, didn't know the answer to. I was only enlightened by the knowledge of Tooj-Meister
 
stvpourciau said:
This :thumbup:

Don't worry, this was I question that I, at one time, didn't know the answer to. I was only enlightened by the knowledge of Tooj-Meister
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Toooj can smell fear, just by lookin' at ya.

Just sayin'.

Moose
 
stvpourciau said:
This :thumbup:

Don't worry, this was I question that I, at one time, didn't know the answer to. I was only enlightened by the knowledge of Tooj-Meister
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i'd heard that at one time or the other. Still, done right, D2 makes a hell'va blade.
 
David Stifle said:
Okay, I might as well get this out'a the way. How did Paul become Toooj, and how do you pronounce it?
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Paul Tsujimoto. When I was first introduced to him, he was Toooj. I assume from the pronounciation of his last name, tooj-i-moto.

We can ask him.

TOOOJ!!!!!!!!!!

Moose
 
A custom, hand made MK2? Bring it on! I'm all for it, even though I can't afford something like this, I really want to see it.

The first fixed blade that I ever bought my self was a Ka-Bar 3/4 Mark II AKA Kabar Shorty as the dealer called it. I sold or traded it to a friend years ago and he won't trade/sell it back. It's his car emergency knife. :) Looks like I'll have to save up and get another one. Plus maybe a Full sized. . . .

Loving this thread!!
 
David Stifle said:
What brought me to my question are the stories of Ka-bars being used to pry open crates, dig foxholes, or being used to baton. I just did'nt think such a thin spined knife (and I don't think fullers make a knife stronger, unless they are offset) could be used that way. I have no doubt it's a superb fighter, however.

As for the tang shoulders, I think it would be a better knife if they got rid of those square shoulders.

One last question, does anyone lnow if the original spec's called for a 5/32" spine? I suspect the war issued blade may have been more sturdy.
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Well, I did everything I could do to damage my Ka-bar, just because of these discussions. I wanted to be sure i could rely on the knife.
I chopped as hard as I could, batoned through hard wood AND USED THE HANDLE AS A STEP, LOADING IT WITH MY FULL BODY WEIGHT.
By now I am convinced, that there is no design problem. If it fails, it is probabely the heat treatment
 
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wildmanh said:
A custom, hand made MK2? Bring it on! I'm all for it, even though I can't afford something like this, I really want to see it.

The first fixed blade that I ever bought my self was a Ka-Bar 3/4 Mark II AKA Kabar Shorty as the dealer called it. I sold or traded it to a friend years ago and he won't trade/sell it back. It's his car emergency knife. :) Looks like I'll have to save up and get another one. Plus maybe a Full sized. . . .

Loving this thread!!
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Well, here's the clothes I'd like to put it in. It's beyond my abilities to make. What do you think?
 

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Looks like a well made sheath. Nice colors also. I'm not big on tons of pouches and stuff hanging off my sheaths, but it is well built and finished, which is what matters. :)

Every once in a while, I get a hankering for another Ka-Bar, a 3/4 and a full sized. This thread is just making this desire stronger. :D
 
All,

Okay, this thread has taken a life of it's own...that's good.
To answer some questions:
1) David, the blade is differentially heat treated....not edge to back spine but from blade to pommel. The blade is 55-57 HRc. The shoulder (blade/tang junction) is 35-45 HRc. And the remainder of the tang should not exceed 30HRC. That is the Mil Spec.
The problem of tang breakage at the blade shoulder is sometimes the heat treat transition zone ends rather abruptly. When this happens there is a section of steel that is very hard next to steel that is significantly softer. Microscopically, that causes
stress risers that form a micro crack that eventually enlarges to a big crack and then failure.
2) D2: Comparing steels is a tricky science. There are very few absolutes and one is often comparing apple and oranges. D2 is a die steel which must take a lot of impact when used in that capacity. It also has tremendous abrasion resistence. That's what
makes it a great knife steel. So it is strong, has good impact resistence and excellent abrasion resistence. There are other steels I would use in pure impact scenarios. But life is very tricky. There is usually more than one variable that must be considered,
so the whole set of properties must be considered. In engineering, the best set of compromises usually wins out. That is a terrible way to look at engineering problems but it is usually the best solution.
3) Can we build a $300-400 F/U knife? Sure we can. That's the easy part. Now let's market and actually sell them. Our experience is that we will be left holding onto many unsold pieces, have enormous tooling and mold costs, blah, blah, blah. We are a
profitable company because we actually look at things like sales projections, profit margins, breakeven points, inventory/warehouse costs, etc, etc. One has to use both your heart and head when making these decisions.
4) If any custom makers wants to make a Custom version of the USMC F/U knife; it is their right to do so. The design was originally Union Cutlery's but since the Government used it, it is now public domain. I think once a person starts
they will quickly find out how difficult it will be to do this project. There may be a reason that there are not very many people (or factories) doing this knife. The late Tom Hetmanski probably did it better than most.

Okay, I've blathered on enough.
Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
Sr Eng
Prod Dev and Qual
KA-BAR Knives
 
Have to say this thread is pretty awesome. Very respectful discussion that is not typically the norm when this subject gets brought up, so kudos to those involved. I really enjoyed the statistical analysis explanation of blade performance/breakage by Toooj! It is really hard to refute actual data and I for one would find it intriguing to hear more of this. (even though I understand a lot of it is probably proprietary and would not be in KA-BAR's best interest to release.) Either way, a great discussion!

 
Thanks Toooj,

I appreciate your taking the time to answer a few questions. I understand the complexities of steels, marketing, etc. Change one thing, you change everything. I recently retired from a position in which I was a member of a design engineering team for development of a fifth generation jet fighter. We made many trade offs between engineering, manpower, logistics and budgetary concerns. In any case, I'm glad a U.S. company since as yours is thriving.

As for making this knife, it's surprisingly labor intensive ; but, it is a fun challenge to make a few every now and then. I'll see what's on the internet on Tom's knives. One can never learn enough.
 
iwouldhurtafly said:
Have to say this thread is pretty awesome. Very respectful discussion that is not typically the norm when this subject gets brought up, so kudos to those involved. I really enjoyed the statistical analysis explanation of blade performance/breakage by Toooj! It is really hard to refute actual data and I for one would find it intriguing to hear more of this. (even though I understand a lot of it is probably proprietary and would not be in KA-BAR's best interest to release.) Either way, a great discussion!

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If you give respect, you get respect, simple recipe. By the way, nice picture and good looking knife. What's the handle material?

I'm curious about KA-BAR's quality control process. Guys like me cut syrofoam a couple of hundred times, check the edge. Maybe do the brass rod test, although I've never though to much of it. Cut free hanging rope, 2x4 cutting, etc. What does a modern factory do in lieu of these simple tests?
 
Moosez45 said:
I think he was referring to the fact that it seems like these days, folks believe that if it ain't .250" thick, then is too weak to be of any use. Which, is wrong, as we all know.
Moose
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Thats exactly what I was trying to say, sorry if that was unclear. With the F/U, I think its a "don't fix what isn't broken" thing. The design is proven, and Kabar sells a lot of 'em- so why would they change anything about it ?
 
ml100 said:
Well, I did everything I could do to damage my Ka-bar, just because of these discussions. I wanted to be sure i could rely on the knife.
I chopped as hard as I could, batoned through hard wood AND USED THE HANDLE AS A STEP, LOADING IT WITH MY FULL BODY WEIGHT.
By now I am convinced, that there is no design problem. If it fails, it is probabely the heat treatment
Click to expand...

Well, that's good then. But you know there have been KA-BAR's which did break. Look at the picture Moose posted on page one of this post. Perhaps I'm wrong. I can't ignore the first hand evidence you guys are offering. But my head tells me such a thin tang is a likely place to break, no matter what the RC rating is. I guess I'll have to test one out myself before I can completely accept that you can fully stand on it. There's a video over the the review and test forum of a guys testing the tang strenght of his hollow handle knife. He fixes the blade in a vise on the wall, and does chin up using the handle. That's pretty convincing, as it tests both the tang and blade at the same time. But in any case, I never said this knife is a slouch, it's not. It's a fine knife, as I've said all along.
 
C_Becker said:
Thats exactly what I was trying to say, sorry if that was unclear. With the F/U, I think its a "don't fix what isn't broken" thing. The design is proven, and Kabar sells a lot of 'em- so why would they change anything about it ?
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It probably comes down to personal preference As a custom maker, I am used to my customers asking for 1/8 to 3/16th" spines with radiused tangs. Many like to see pictures before the guard or handle is put on, simply so they can see the tang.

I remain convinced, despite powerful testimony, that the design could be further improved. Not at the $100. pricepoint, but it could be further enhanced.

For example, while the stacked leather handle appears as hard as a rock, it's not. I don't think it offers much in structural support to the tang; not as much as wood, stag or other structurally hard materials may offer. Also, the handle doesn't have a ferrule. A ferrule is the metal ring placed behind the guard, closely pressured fitted to the tang at the tang shoulder area. The handle, wood, stag, etc., is carved to go into the ferrule. I think this offers strong tang support, well, at least the Japanese seem to since they incorporated them into most of their designs for many hundreds of years.

But, this is purely an academic excercise. The present design works, it's not going to change due to a lot of reasons, some of which Toooj spoke about.

I've enjoyed these conversations, and I'm sure all you fellas will continue to use and enjoy your KA-BAR's. Perhaps Moose will post a picture or two and a few remarks when he get's the one I'm making for him. I'm signing out, guys, got a ton of work to get done.
 
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