Lost Knives in mail, USPS Denies Claim

ExtraBaconPlease said:
INSURANCE THROUGH SHIPPING COMPANIES IS A SCAM. THEY ARE USELESS! DO NOT BUY INSURANCE. I learnt the hard way after losing $900 AUD to AusPost!!!

You should NOT have refunded the buyer through Paypal, that transaction is now complete and you just lost your REAL insurance money through Paypal. You should of called Paypal right away and told them what happened. They COMPLETELY insure the BUYER and the SELLER up to like 20 grand if you use Goods and Services.

Hate to say it but I think you are chit outta luck...

Really hope you somehow get your cash back mate. Goodluck.

PSA: ONLY USE PAYPAL GOODS AND SERVICES DONT WASTE CASH AND GET FALSE HOPE FROM SHIPPING COMPANY INSURANCE.
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You are wrong about the transaction. PayPal is very clear in their terms that it is the seller's responsibility to insure the package arrives. A transaction is not considered complete until the package has a confirmed delivery or attempt to deliver with the shipping carrier. If I had not refunded his money, PayPal would have just forced it and he would have rightfully complained on these forums and tarnished my name.

As far as PayPal covering the seller, I am not aware of any truth to this either. Could you provide any evidence this is true? I certainly cannot find any, nor does it really make sense to me that they would.

Rob
 
rwknox said:
You are wrong about the transaction. PayPal is very clear in their terms that it is the seller's responsibility to insure the package arrives. A transaction is not considered complete until the package has a confirmed delivery or attempt to deliver with the shipping carrier. If I had not refunded his money, PayPal would have just forced it and he would have rightfully complained on these forums and tarnished my name.

As far as PayPal covering the seller, I am not aware of any truth to this either. Could you provide any evidence this is true? I certainly cannot find any, nor does it really make sense to me that they would.

Rob
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I've had Paypal cover my Bacon as the buyer and the seller numerous times INCLUDING a knife I sent to the US (international, im in Australia) that was stolen/not delivered. Paypal completely covered me and the seller for the cost of the knife AND shipping. You should never of refunded the buyer my friend and I mean that with respect. It might seem like the right thing to do but it isn't because now the case is closed on Paypal's end and they don't and won't do anything now. Never end a transaction yourself, unless its a refund for example and you didnt ship the knife. Let Paypal do it.
 
KnifeKnutz said:
That's what I thought but looking more closely at paypal's requirements it may have to show "delivered" not just "shipped" to be covered in this case
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All I had to do was call them and provide the tracking number and photo of the receipt of purchase from the Australia Post store.
 
It may have different rules in Australia? I thought the same but after what petey and op said it looks like no paypal seller coverage unless it says "delivered".

Thankfully he should be covered by buying insurance and just has to go through the hurdles now.
 
If the buyer starts crying about getting a refund when the case is sti open with Paypal, you are in comms with Paypal AND the buyer, bringing him or her up to date with each update and they cry and start tarnishing your name on the forum Boo hoo. They will look like the idiot in the end because the case is still WIDE open and just like you said, Paypal will give them their cash. Let em throw a temper tantrum if it's going to get your cash back for the knives....its a lot of money and you have done nothing wrong.
 
KnifeKnutz said:
It may have different rules in Australia? I thought the same but after what petey and op said it looks like no paypal seller coverage unless it says "delivered".

Thankfully he should be covered by buying insurance and just has to go through the hurdles now.
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Dont see why it would be different here. All im gonna say is leave the case open next time and CALL them and ask to speak to the supervisors SUPERVISOR lol most people that answer the phone are useless and are there to answer silly questions like "i forgot my password..."
 
I have confirmed this with PayPal. the Seller Protection Policy in the terms of service DOES NOT cover the seller UNLESS proof of delivery can be given. It DOES NOT cover lost packages that never reached their destination, period. When PayPal covered you in the past as a seller it must have been that the package was delivered but the buyer claimed they did not receive it. If not, I believe you are admitting to fraud on a public forum because PayPal does not and has never covered lost packages that are lost in transit and never delivered.
 
If the package has not been delivered, I don't see how they can deny an insurance claim.
 
Go to your local P.O. with your tracking info. Ask to speak with a supervisor. CALMLY explain your situation. They can look on the Postal system and see were your package was last or possibly still is. They see more information than when you track it online. They will see if there is any issues with delayed delivery or open box.
Also, you have to wait 30 days to file a claim. That is why it was denied so quickly I bet.
 
rwknox said:
Well folks, the subject says it all. I shipped 4 knives insured for $2,500 on June 15th. The knives never made it to their destination. I filed an insurance claim with the USPS and they denied my claim. If anybody has any experience they can offer for advice on how to proceed, I would greatly appreciate it.

I gave the USPS:
-Copy of the shipping receipt with insurance value.
-Copy of PAID receipts from Busse for each item.

The letter they sent me says that the proof of value is insufficient and they do not elaborate any further. They say proof of value must show:
1) Article Description - Receipt from Busse gives full description of each item.
2) Completion of Payment - Receipt is marked PAID and indicates a zero balance.
3) Method of Payment - Receipt clearly indicates store credit was used.

What else can I offer them, any suggestions? I was thinking screenshots of forum posts for the original sale for Ganza items and copies of the Op2Wks email announcements.

Update to address several of your questions:

I have spoken with a rep from the insurance division at the post office. She was unable to address some of my questions however they were able to give one explanation.

I shipped 4 knives 1 box. 2 knives were purchased during a Ganza before Op2Wks. 2 knives were from Op2Wks. I got invoices from Busse. The invoices from Busse for the Ganza knives indicated a date of when I requested the invoices rather than the purchase date. The claims person took that as the purchase date and denied my claim because the date I requested the invoice copy was obviously after the date shipped. NOW, Busse clearly labeled on the receipt that purchase was June 22 2015, but they did not look at that. After bringing this to the attention of the claims rep, she has "escalated my ticket" and I am waiting for a call back from the USPS claims supervisor.

I have now spoken with Amy from Busse (she is the best person on Earth to me right now for the record) and she is going to try to get the dates corrected on the invoice for me.

I will indeed contact the inspector as my next measure if I cannot solve this with an appeal and some updated documents.

PayPal cannot help me because I am the shipper. Also FOR THE RECORD, I have completely refunded the buyer's money.

Also just to be clear, purchasing insurance DOES NOT actually cover you. The USPS requires that you prove the value of the items. This is simply intended to be a hurdle and is complete bullshit.

Rob
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One Major issue that wasn't stated above is; If you buy second hand, and it has an escalated price due to rarity, age, or other factors, the value of insurance coverage paid out is up to the discretion of the USPS and not just a pay out of the price paid or insured value.
Now factor in that knives aren't a common hobby/interest and a secondary market that depends on high demand and low supply, and you have a recipe for disaster.

This is an attempt to curb abuse. If I sent someone a package with a package of Tic Tacs in it, and insured it for $800, and they said it was lost and I claimed the insurance value, they will not want to pay $800 for Tic Tacs.

This is why they want documentation. Though, this does not explain why the documents given from the company that made the product and stated the price paid, were not acceptable...
How do you expect Non-Knife folks to place a valuation on a knife they have never heard of, and can't justify paying $30 for a pocket knife, let alone $1,000+ for a knife...


How would someone on here place a value on an antique Mongolian fork, or a traditional plate used in Sub-Saharan Africa?
These items are as abstract to us as our knives are to them...
 
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R rwknox man I'm sorry for your troubles and hope it becomes only an inconvenience after the 30 days is up and they approve your claim. Thanks for bringing this possibility to my attention as well. Also if I may:

If the buyer does not receive the knifes bc they were lost and never delivered and they used PPGS then shouldn't they file a claim with PayPal? Why would the buyer expect the seller to refund their money when they are covered by PayPal Goods and Services protection? Shouldn't the buyer file a claim to get their money back and let PayPal take it from there? Is that fraud? If a refund is issued by PayPal to the buyer does it come from the account of the seller anyways? I'm not trying to stir the pot here but legitimately asking as I may want to sell some blades in the near future and I want to do it the right way.
 
rwknox said:
I have confirmed this with PayPal. the Seller Protection Policy in the terms of service DOES NOT cover the seller UNLESS proof of delivery can be given. It DOES NOT cover lost packages that never reached their destination, period. When PayPal covered you in the past as a seller it must have been that the package was delivered but the buyer claimed they did not receive it. If not, I believe you are admitting to fraud on a public forum because PayPal does not and has never covered lost packages that are lost in transit and never delivered.
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Yes, I am a fraud, coward and a thief. Lmfao. I'm done here. Just trying to help brother. Peace!
 
littlehoot said:
If the package has not been delivered, I don't see how they can deny an insurance claim.
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I agree completely. However, as stated in the OP their justification was because the invoice from Busse had two dates on it. One date was the invoice date which was the day the invoice copy was requested. The other date was the purchase date. They took the invoice reference date as the purchase date and refused to consider the purchase date listed by Busse in the Item Description. I am attempting to correct this with Busse (who has been SUPER helpful through all of this).

Monofletch said:
Go to your local P.O. with your tracking info. Ask to speak with a supervisor. CALMLY explain your situation. They can look on the Postal system and see were your package was last or possibly still is. They see more information than when you track it online. They will see if there is any issues with delayed delivery or open box.
Also, you have to wait 30 days to file a claim. That is why it was denied so quickly I bet.
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I did this 2 weeks ago. They do not have access to more detailed tracking, that is not true. If you do not purchase tracking then they have better tracking, however because this was priority mail insured, it did have tracking and the information is the same (I have confirmed this with the manager of my local USPS as well as the distribution facility). The USPS ONLY scans items when they leave a distribution center and when the package reaches its delivery. USPS does NOT track which truck your package gets on or where it goes in between. When they offer tracking, it is very misleading what they are offering.

NJBillK said:
One Major issue that wasn't stated above is; If you buy second hand, and it has an escalated price due to rarity, age, or other factors, the value of insurance coverage paid out is up to the discretion of the USPS and not just a pay out of the price paid or insured value.
Now factor in that knives aren't a common hobby/interest and a secondary market that depends on high demand and low supply, and you have a recipe for disaster.

This is an attempt to curb abuse. If I sent someone a package with a package of Tic Tacs in it, and insured it for $800, and they said it was lost and I claimed the insurance value, they will not want to pay $800 for Tic Tacs.

This is why they want documentation. Though, this does not explain why the documents given from the company that made the product and stated the price paid, were not acceptable...
How do you expect Non-Knife folks to place a valuation on a knife they have never heard of, and can't justify paying $30 for a pocket knife, let alone $1,000+ for a knife...


How would someone on here place a value on an antique Mongolian fork, or a traditional plate used in Sub-Saharan Africa?
These items are as abstract to us as our knives are to them...
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1) These were not purchased second hand. Though it is an important thing for all of us to keep in mind and frankly a good reason that we should leave the prices in our "Sold" listings. I sold a MOABM a long time ago for much more than the original price, I would not have been able to claim that had it been lost.

2) I understand why. Its the same reason your doctor has to report what they gave you and why they gave it to you or insurance would deny those to. Though I believe its more likely the primary reason is to avoid paying out as many legitimate claims as possible due to simple technicalities as well.

3) I explained why they denied the documents above. Its bullshit, but its a reason.

4) I posed this question to the USPS claims rep and the answer is that you should have the items appraised by an accredited professional before shipping them.

hydeinmind said:
R rwknox man I'm sorry for your troubles and hope it becomes only an inconvenience after the 30 days is up and they approve your claim. Thanks for bringing this possibility to my attention as well. Also if I may:

If the buyer does not receive the knifes bc they were lost and never delivered and they used PPGS then shouldn't they file a claim with PayPal? Why would the buyer expect the seller to refund their money when they are covered by PayPal Goods and Services protection? Shouldn't the buyer file a claim to get their money back and let PayPal take it from there? Is that fraud? If a refund is issued by PayPal to the buyer does it come from the account of the seller anyways? I'm not trying to stir the pot here but legitimately asking as I may want to sell some blades in the near future and I want to do it the right way.
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It has been more than 30 days. However, that is NOT the policy. Insurance claims for lost mail can be issued after 15 days but no later than 60 days.

I could have forced PayPal to file the claim. However, when PayPal reimburses the buyer, THEY do not do it, the seller does. PayPal retains the ability to withdraw from your accounts linked to your PayPal in order to force this (and you agreed to it if you use PayPal) and if they are not able to do that, I am quite certain they would sue you for the money.

No worries, the main point of the post is to gather information. This could happen to any of us anytime we sell and after days of research, I have found there is more incorrect information floating around than correct (as you may have noticed with several posters in this very thread).
 
rwknox said:
No worries, the main point of the post is to gather information.
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Yup, and I'll add you've also served to SHARE information, so thanks for that! :)

rwknox said:
...
This could happen to any of us anytime we sell and after days of research, I have found there is more incorrect information floating around than correct (as you may have noticed with several posters in this very thread).
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Yup, I've had a couple buyers INSIST that I provide USPS insurance on their parcel to protect THEM from loss...I don't argue the point that the insurance is for my benefit as the seller, not theirs as the buyer...I just go ahead and pay the extra couple of bucks :rolleyes: to help them sleep more easily that nite-- because I know for sure it doesn't benefit the buyer one tiny bit. For that matter <as you've discovered> the "protection" it claims to provide the seller is largely a mirage, too!:thumbsdown:
 
Keep on them about it and good luck.

I made a usps insurance claim once, the whole shipping container (not just my package) went missing off the coast of Gibraltar. It was an obvious claim and it still took them 6 months to settle with me.
 
Insurance companies have been using the three D's for a while to "stay profitable " They Deny first, Defend second, and finally Delay any judgement or payment. I thought we were covered too but found out the hard way the protection is an illusion / fraud. I am sorry you were taken by these thieves. I hope the Universe makes it up to you later.
 
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