Microbevels

I speed read through this thread and didnt find an answer to this. Is it ok to remove a burr by making a microbevel ?

Yes, but (there's always a "but" isn't there :D), If you are having a problem removing a burr you may have a problem removing a burr on your microbevel also. :eek: For me the key to removing a burr is VERY VERY VERY light strokes. So light you barely feel any contact between edge and stone. More pressure may form a burr on the opposite side. Try using such a small amount of pressure that you KNOW it wouldn't remove any steel and see how your edge feels. I bet the burr will be gone. That's if it is one of those burrs that is so small that it is hard to see or feel. Some burrs are small enough that I can't feel them (old fingers) but the knife just doesn't cut like it should. That's when a VERY light stroke, only one, may help. Good luck. Nothing wrong with a micro-bevel though but I'd rather not use that to solve a problem. I like to use them to toughen the edge on a very thin edge like an edge of 26 degrees inclusive with a micro-bevel of around 36 degrees inclusive. Personal preference there of course combined with what material you are using the knife to cut.

Jack
 
Well put, Jackknifeh

Burrs and pressure are closely related, then add in the extremely small surface area of the microbevel and that pesky burr is easily produced, harder to remove, and really small. Your also limited in the number of passes you can make before the micro becomes not so micro and starts to affect performance.


What I really wanted to comment on though was the angle combo's, when I experimented with micros that +10 degree increase on the microbevel always seemed like the magic number. Your 26-36 is very similar to the angles I used and found offered the greatest strength and cutting ability. How are you finishing the back bevel in comparison to the micro?
 
Well put, Jackknifeh

Burrs and pressure are closely related, then add in the extremely small surface area of the microbevel and that pesky burr is easily produced, harder to remove, and really small. Your also limited in the number of passes you can make before the micro becomes not so micro and starts to affect performance.


What I really wanted to comment on though was the angle combo's, when I experimented with micros that +10 degree increase on the microbevel always seemed like the magic number. Your 26-36 is very similar to the angles I used and found offered the greatest strength and cutting ability. How are you finishing the back bevel in comparison to the micro?

Using the 26-36 angle example I like to sharpen the edge to 26 not worrying about getting it really sharp if I'm going to put a micro bevel on that edge. I'd use the stone combinations I like (limited to what I own) to get a very smooth almost mirror polish on the bevels. Then I'll use strops with diamond paste to polish the bevels until they are just about perfect. On a good day I'll get them scratchless to the naked eye. I have a 6x loop that will show tiny scratches (so I try not to use it :)). Then I'll put the 36 degree micro-bevel on the edge with a fine stone so it won't remove steel too fast. I wish there was a common terminology we all use but there isn't. I call the bevel on the very edge an edge bevel and the lower angle bevel I call a back bevel like you did. If the edge bevel is very very small I'll call it a micro-bevel. As I touch up the edge over time the micro-bevel gets wider each time of course. Then I'll stop calling it a micro-bevel. Just my vocabulary, not really important except for people talking and knowing what the other is talking about and knowing exactly what they mean. When the edge bevel gets wide enough, I'll re-do the back bevel until the edge bevel is small again. With touch-ups though I like to use just a strop but use it frequently. That way the knife is never dull and less steel is removed over time.

Sometimes I do this. I'll create the 26 degree back bevel then create a 30 or 32 degree edge bevel. Then when I touch up the edge I can use a slightly higher angle for the edge up to a 36 angle inclusive. That's only to easily guarantee I hit the edge each time when stropping and not going over the 36 degree edge bevel. Also, that will help save a little steel. As I was learning to create really sharp edges it amazed me how fast I could sharpen steel away until I developed more skill and a technique I liked. All my life I could sharpen knives pretty good but in the past few years I've learned what a really sharp edge was and how to achieve it. Of course, those super razor sharp edges aren't needed on most EDC knives most of the time but I like having them. I went into more detail than needed to answer your question. Sometimes I get to rambling. Sorry.

Jack
 
At first I did the same and put a higher polish on the back bevel but couldn't help to try various combinations. For me I like the spyderco UF sharpmaker rod for setting the micro so my next challenge was to see how coarse I could go with back bevel before it started having affects on the application of the micro. After some trial and error I ended up finishing with a 1200 DMT on the back bevel then using the UF ceramic starting with medium pressure and working to a feather touch before making a visit to a strop. These days I use bare leather but if you like to use microbevels smooth sanded MDF with some 1 micron diamond works very well.

BTW, I call it a micro because to me that describes it best. If I do a micro bevel its not something you can really see, its not much more than a glint of light reflecting under a lamp and even at 400x magnification its not much more than a line at the end of the bevel.
 
FWIW - thought this might help -
it's from a legendary article on the web on manual sharpening:

pdf article on sharpening (manually) - Sharpening a Knife - Information & tips from a veterinarian whose wife & meat cutting put him through college - by Dee Griffin, DVM - it had become legendary because of its clarity and explanation of the principles of sharpening - it is well worth saving a copy for reference.
[Note: the earlier pages of the article are probably not relevant here - the relevant parts start on page 4 -
I'll just paste that page here:
SharpenKnifeP4X.png


Under the heading Angle of a Sharp Cutting Edge -
"(CA usually 5 degrees greater than TA)"
where
CA = Cutting (edge) Angle
TA = Transition Angle

and toward the bottom of that page:
Remember, always work the TA to the angle you
want and set the CA about 5 degrees greater
(improves durability) than TA.
The steeper the
angles the easier it is for the edge to be damaged.
Ultra fine cutting may require a thinner (steep) TA (10
to 15 degrees). Hollow ground blades seem fragile,
but they are easy to sharpen. A general purpose TA
for meat would be 15 to 20 degrees. Tough use
knives need a TA of 25 to 30 degrees. I like my ax set with a thick TA (35 to 40 degrees). The TA on my ax is very
short (the opposite of hollow ground). I think (not sure, just think) this improves the durability of the cutting edge … It
needs to be tough, I cut a lot of bone with my ax. These thicker angles do not affect the sharpness. My ax will
shave
…

Note: those TA are angles per side
and note: he said his axe will shave (my highlight in red)

So a micro-bevel probably is optimum at 5 deg (per side) greater than the transition (or back) bevel.

However coming back to transition angles or back bevels and whether to polish or not - the differences are pretty minor when compared to having a transition or back bevel - that is actually CONVEX -
as that helps the blade glide through things - and the actual cutting ability of a blade is the way it cuts through things not just at the final cutting edge - shave tests etc (shallow cuts like slicing paper) only tell part of the story - even a total inclusive angle of 50 deg (25 deg per side) will shave - but the blade's ability to cut through is mostly dependent on the transition or back bevel - and why a convex edge is so highly regarded.

Even with a convex edge, even better a "zero bevel" convex edge - if one examines the popular Opinel - one of the best value for money and zero bevel convex edges - one can see a micro-bevel - I recently got a very nice sample - but it had a burr on the micro-bevel - which actually needed knocking off -
I actually did it with the sterling Work Sharp (belt grinder) sharpener - but even after that, the Opinel still had a micro-bevel - so probably using V-hone crock sticks or the Spydie SharpMaker would have done just as well and probably a lot easier/simpler.

--
Vincent

http://picasaweb.com/UnknownVincent?showall=true
http://UnknownVincent.Shutterfly.com
http://UnknownVT.Shutterfly.com
http://UnknownVT.multiply.com/photos
 
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I find that my discovery of the microbevel was quite an accident. It is very difficult for me to sharpen by hand and maintain 20 degrees on the bevel just by eye-balling it. For some apparent reason I would always subconsciously increase the angle when I would re-sharpen and bingo- Clearly a bevel on a bevel. I have found, if you polish the new edge though, you can not tell a difference in ease of cutting compared to the same knife without the microbevel (at least for me). However, I do believe the microbevel is quite practical.
 
I've read this thread in the past and just reread it again to update in my head. I am curious and want to know your guys opinion. Are there any drawbacks or downsides to a microbevel?
 
It increases the force needed to make a cut.
This is probably true, and possibly measurable.

However I doubt if in in real practice one will be able to feel it -
unless of course the micro-bevel is very obtuse (or blunt)

Cutting through things is not only dependent on the final edge (or CA - cutting angle)
but on the TA (transition angle) - that is why the convex edge is so highly regarded.

I'll paste the quote from earlier
pdf article on sharpening (manually) - Sharpening a Knife - Information & tips from a veterinarian whose wife & meat cutting put him through college - by Dee Griffin, DVM -

Under the heading Angle of a Sharp Cutting Edge -
"(CA usually 5 degrees greater than TA)"
where
CA = Cutting (edge) Angle
TA = Transition Angle
bottom of page 4:
Remember, always work the TA to the angle you
want and set the CA about 5 degrees greater
(improves durability) than TA.
The steeper the
angles the easier it is for the edge to be damaged.
Ultra fine cutting may require a thinner (steep) T
to 15 degrees). Hollow ground blades seem fragile,
but they are easy to sharpen. A general purpose TA
for meat would be 15 to 20 degrees. Tough use
knives need a TA of 25 to 30 degrees. I like my ax set with a thick TA (35 to 40 degrees). The TA on my ax is very
short (the opposite of hollow ground). I think (not sure, just think) this improves the durability of the cutting edge … It
needs to be tough, I cut a lot of bone with my ax. These thicker angles do not affect the sharpness. My ax will
shave …

My highlighting in Red

--
Vincent

http://picasaweb.com/UnknownVincent?showall=true
http://UnknownVincent.Shutterfly.com
http://UnknownVT.Shutterfly.com
http://UnknownVT.multiply.com/photos
 
I can feel it when cutting plastic with pocketknives and when cutting veggies with chef knives (though I usually need a fairly obtuse microbevel to feel it with the chef knives as you mentioned) when using a highly polished edge. It's no deal-breaker - I'll taking using 0.25 more inch/pounds over having to touch up or regrind an edge every day of the week - it's just I don't want to say microbevels are 100% benefit and 0% drawback. They're 85-99.997% benefit.
 
What got me Thinking about microbevels was my recently purchased Spyderco Manix 2 XL came with a surprisingly low inclusive angle but was very coarse. So I reprofiled the factory coarse edge away and used it alot at work really enjoying the knife. When it came time for a touch one night after getting home from work one night I was tired and worn out but had to have my knife razor sharp. So I dug out my sharpmaker that hasn't seen much use in a long time and Just made a few strokes on the fine and ultra fine stones on the 40 degree setting. I could see that I was hitting just the very edge under bright light. Then 30 seconds or so on my 1 micron strop and I had my hair whittler edge back. All in all I spent a minute or so on The edge and was happy with the results.
 
Alright, I have skimmed this thread and found some good info. I would like to tell you guys my setup and see if it is sufficient to do micro bevels. I only use a GATCO guided rod system with diamond coarse, medium, fine, and then I bought a GATCO ceramic ultra finishing hone to finish it. I have experimented with stropping but have not mastered it and the ceramic seems to get knifes pretty sharp, phone book slicing sharp. I just tried a micro bevel on a cheap knife, 8Cr13MoV steel. I started by putting a 30 degree inclusive on it and spent very little time with the ceramic. This was starting with the coarse because it was still the factory edge. Then again with all diamonds and ceramic I used the 19 degree hole so 38 total. Should I be able to see the micro bevel with the naked eye? When I put the diamond hone down on the knife for the micro bevel it looked like I was just re-profiling and really just getting the tip. The knife came out sharp (I usually get that soft steel extremely sharp), but did I do the micro bevel? It felt no different and looks no different to me. I am going to hold off on my caly with ZDP which needs to be micro-beveled as I have chipped/rolled that edge in the past and hate working those out.
 
Alright, I have skimmed this thread and found some good info. I would like to tell you guys my setup and see if it is sufficient to do micro bevels. I only use a GATCO guided rod system with diamond coarse, medium, fine, and then I bought a GATCO ceramic ultra finishing hone to finish it. I have experimented with stropping but have not mastered it and the ceramic seems to get knifes pretty sharp, phone book slicing sharp. I just tried a micro bevel on a cheap knife, 8Cr13MoV steel. I started by putting a 30 degree inclusive on it and spent very little time with the ceramic. This was starting with the coarse because it was still the factory edge. Then again with all diamonds and ceramic I used the 19 degree hole so 38 total. Should I be able to see the micro bevel with the naked eye? When I put the diamond hone down on the knife for the micro bevel it looked like I was just re-profiling and really just getting the tip. The knife came out sharp (I usually get that soft steel extremely sharp), but did I do the micro bevel? It felt no different and looks no different to me. I am going to hold off on my caly with ZDP which needs to be micro-beveled as I have chipped/rolled that edge in the past and hate working those out.

Let's call your 30 deg incl angle bevel the back bevel. Then let's call your 38 deg angle bevel the edge bevel since it is right on the edge. Now we are using the same terms. I call your 38 deg bevel the edge bevel and only use the term micro-bevel if the edge bevel is VERY small. I believe you now have a 38 degree micro-bevel. Do you have a loupe or magnifying glass to look at the edge with? VERY small micro (edge) bevels can be hard to see with the naked eye but still be enough to put a really hair whittling edge on the knife. You should at least be able to see it if you slowly turn the knife and watch the reflection off a ceiling light or any light source. If you keep stroking the edge at 38 degrees the bevel will get wider and wider until it is obvious that it is there. You can see it very easily. So, I think you now have a 30 degree inclusive back bevel and a 38 degree inclusive edge (micro because it is very small) bevel. I hope I explained what I'm thinking ok. If you have any questions please let me know. Others may be able to explain it better.

ZDP-189 steel edges: This is MY EXPERIENCE. Different people seem to have different views on ZDP. Anyway, every knife with ZDP I ever owned would develop micro chips right on the edge if the edge angle was too low. The steel is very hard and can be more brittle than other great steels. So, I put low back bevel angles on my ZDP then put a 40 degree inclusive edge bevel on the very edge. The low angle back bevel thinned the edge for better slicing and the 40 degree edge bevel would give the very edge more strength because the steel is thicker. I made sure the edge bevel was wide enough to be easily seen. If the edge bevel was very small (micro-bevel) then it still wouldn't help with the micro chipping. What I mean by chipping is chips small enough in the edge you may not see them but would feel them when slicing paper or running your thumb nail down the edge. The tiny chips didn't really hurt cutting performance, it just bugged the crap out of me. Anyway, that's my feeling about ZDP-189. I feel it's a great steel but you need to sharpen it correctly for the best performance. I don't believe you can sharpen it at something like 26 degrees inclusive at the edge and NOT get chipping when cutting cardboard or cutting french fries out of a potato. Seriously, I found small chips in the edge of my Spyderco Stretch with ZDP after peeling and cutting up a couple of potatos into fries. Maybe I should have washed the sand and rocks off the potatoes first. :) Just kidding, they were clean. Again, any questions pleas ask. I'm no expert and like I said others have their own experiences with ZDP. A lot of it depends on how we sharpen and use our knives I think.

Jack
 
Thank you for your response. I do not have a magnifying glass but will pick one up soon and take a better look at it. Your response made sense, I think I was just expecting something to stand out as different than how I have been sharpening. I feel a little bit better about accomplishing my first micro-bevel and that is a good thing. I may re-read and respond to your second paragraph concerning ZDP. I do like that steel a lot though.
 
Alright, I decided to play with this micro-beveling some more. I took my Sage 2 which I had always put a 38 degree inclusive and ground away with my diamond stones using the sharpie on the edge extensively. I think the sharpie trick helped me understand this more. I decided to put a 22 degree inclusive back grind on it to maximize my chances at seeing it when I was done and understanding how to accomplish it more. First off, is that combination ok? I see a lot of 40/30 combinations and I think I ground at 11 degrees per side for a while, then came back at 19 per side. I also changed up the order in how I did it. Instead of using all four at one angle and then coming back with all four at the other angle I did one diamond/stone at both angles then moved onto the next diamond/stone , and there is where my sharpie mark really helped me. I could see the sharpie line disappear at the edge only with the 19 degree and then more of the sharpie mark towards the spine at 11 degrees. I took my time and went super light on the ceramic and this is definitely the sharpest I have gotten this knife yet.

Jackknifeh:
I think I may do this to my Caly 3, I like how it turned out. Is this about what your zdp looks like? My picture is not great, but you can make out the edge bevel as more of a shadow. Yeah, I put some scratches where I did not mean to.
IMG_3667.jpg
 
What I write is in red.

Alright, I decided to play with this micro-beveling some more. I took my Sage 2 which I had always put a 38 degree inclusive and ground away with my diamond stones using the sharpie on the edge extensively. I think the sharpie trick helped me understand this more. I decided to put a 22 degree inclusive back grind on it to maximize my chances at seeing it when I was done and understanding how to accomplish it more. First off, is that combination ok? Yes. That is a pretty low back bevel but using S30V and the Sage2 as an EDC knife it sounds fine to me. Excellent slicer. I wouldn’t use that angle combo with S30V and use it as a camp knife though. OTOH, it may hold up fine. I like and trust S30V a whole lot even though I don’t use knives hard any more very often. Maybe a 38/28 inclusive combo would be safer for a hard use knife when camping/hiking, hunting, etc. Especially if you frequently put a lot of side to side stress on the knife edge. I see a lot of 40/30 combinations and I think I ground at 11 degrees per side for a while, then came back at 19 per side. I also changed up the order in how I did it. Instead of using all four at one angle and then coming back with all four at the other angle I did one diamond/stone at both angles then moved onto the next diamond/stone , and there is where my sharpie mark really helped me. I could see the sharpie line disappear at the edge only with the 19 degree and then more of the sharpie mark towards the spine at 11 degrees. About the 40/30 angle combination. Most people who have been using/sharpening knives for many years hold to this tried and true edge angle combination. The Spyderco Sharpmaker is set with those two angles. Unless a knife has specific uses requiring something else those angles on an edge is fine for an EDC knife. But, the improvement in knife blade steels in the past several years enable the blade to be strong enough to sharpen at lower angles and maintain the strength for less chance of chipping and also maintain good edge retention. So, now we try to get as low as we can for better cutting performance. About the order of stones/angles we choose to do next. I’ve seen people decide to work through stones and angles in different order. I don’t think it matters at all as long as you understand the reasons for choosing a particular order of stone/angle progression to get the result you want. All we are really doing is removing unwanted steel from the razor sharp edge that is inside every knife blade. :) You probably know this but I’ll mention it anyway. When working on one side of a knife edge, completing maybe 90% of the work that side needs then doing the same to the other side there is the potential of moving the edge off center of the blade. That’s assuming the edge was centered to begin with. Personally, I work with the same stone at the same angle on both sides of the edge, then move to the next stone at the same angle. By working in this sequence I complete (almost) the lowest back bevel angle all the way through getting a mirror finish if I want on that bevel. Then I move back to a coarser stone for the next higher bevel angle I’m putting on the knife. Most of the time it’s one back bevel then the edge bevel. Two (or three) back bevels can create a convex edge shape (sort of). Is that beneficial? Who knows. :) Some people swear convex edges slice better. I’ve wondered if you blindfolded one of these people and had them cut the same material with the same type knife, one with one flat bevel (on each side) and the other a convex edge would they be able to consistently feel which one they were cutting with. Just because we know one is better based on scientific data obtained in laboratory testing doesn’t mean it will make a big difference in every day life. When I’m finished with a knife edge I want both sides to look like siamese twins joined at the edge. Maybe not identical twins but twins just the same. I took my time and went super light on the ceramic and this is definitely the sharpest I have gotten this knife yet.


Jackknifeh:
I think I may do this to my Caly 3, I like how it turned out. Is this about what your zdp looks like? My picture is not great, but you can make out the edge bevel as more of a shadow. Yeah, I put some scratches where I did not mean to.

My ZDP blades looked a lot like the edge in your picture right at the edge. From the picture the back bevel looks more like a convex shape than a flat bevel which is cool. I’ve never used a Gatco sharpener but it sounds like you can get a good range of consistent angles with it. I free-hand sharpen and have gotten good enough to sharpen at angles with accuracy at about .1 degree margin of error on every stroke. That’s a lie. Sorry. I use an Edge Pro because other than touching up an edge I stink at re-profiling a knife edge free hand. For touch-ups I use fine and UF ceramic stones and strops. I liked a back bevel of 26 deg inclusive and an edge bevel of 38 deg inclusive for ZDP-189 blades. The edge bevel was wide enough to be seen easily, like yours is. With my first ZDP knife I thought I was going to be able to sharpen at very low angles and maintain great edge retention because the steel was so hard (64-66 Rc). My first task was replacing an electric outlet in my house. Using the knife to cut the insulation around the copper wires resulted in a couple of very tiny chips in the very edge. You could barely see the chips but could easily feel them when cutting phone book paper or running your finger nail along the edge. The micro chips as I called them didn’t hurt cutting performance at all but I figured when using ZDP on tougher work the low angle edges may chip with larger, visible dings in the edge. These chips even occurred when cutting and peeling potatoes when the ZDP was at an edge angle lower than 30 deg inclusive. So, I always sharpened my ZDP edges at 38 degrees inclusive no matter what back bevel angle I used on a knife. I used 38 because when I touch up on a fine or UF stone I could hit the edge around 40 degrees and quickly get the hair shaving edge back. Using what I call the better angle choice ZDP is a very good steel IMO. I will say that I NEVER got the chipping on any other steel I’ve used like I did with ZDP-189. Of the knives I have now my favorite steel is CPM-S30V and CPM-M4. I can peel potatoes and cut them into french fries with either steel and not have any chips in the edge at all. Edge retention is great with these steels also. All of my knives have an edge bevel between 30 and 38 degrees inclusive. My back bevels can go as low as 24 inclusive but normally around 28. I don't really want the 20 degree inclusive angles. I don't cut anything where angles that low would be of any benifit I don't think.

I hope this was informative and not too boring. I get long winded. I’ve gotten interested in sharpening, trying to get the ultimate razor sharp edge in the past five or six years. Mirror finish on the bevels also is something I’m getting pretty good at. You need the correct, good quality sharpening tools to make things easier (or even possible). I can stand outside and see the reflection of the tree branches above my head in the bevel of some of my knives. Once I had a saber grind VG-10 Spyderco Endura that I put an edge bevel of 40 degrees. Then I lowered the back bevel to 36, then 32, 28 and stopped on 24 degrees (I think, might have stopped after 28) inclusive. It really looked nice. I had 4 or 5 flat bevels along the edge that were even and very visible as you rotated the blade slowly under the light. But the cutting performance didn’t improve enough to do this all the time. I don’t know if it improved cutting performance that much anyway for EDC cutting. It was cool just for fun though. You’re thinking I have too much time on my hands aren’t you. :D

Sorry to be so long winded.
Jack
 
Sorry to be so long winded.
Jack


Not too long winded, I will soak up all the information you want to give me. I may change and beef up my back bevel a bit especially if I notice some issues. My Sage 2 is not much of a hard use knife. I use my Sage 3 pretty hard so will do a 38/30 on that. I still might hold off on my Caly until I get better (I have plenty of Sanrenmu's and other 8Cr13MoV blades to practice on) at this. That thing scratches so easily, and I put some scratches on the s30v. I did try and free hand a bit because that 11 degree groove on my sharpener is so low that the stones scrape the part of the sharpener that holds the spine of the blade.

I chipped/rolled my Caly 3's factory edge. I say chip/roll because when it happened I did not know the difference between chipping and rolling and assumed it was chipped, but maybe not. I bought into the theory that a factory edge does that a lot and you have to put your own edge on it to get to "good steel." Not sure about that now, but it gave an excuse to Spyderco and that super hard zdp and made me feel better about my new $125 knife with super steel chipping on me!

Your information on the "Siamese twins" approach was good. I know my edge is not symmetrical, so I will try to refine my process and get it symmetrical. For me, whenever I put my first edge on a new knife I of course get my coarse diamond out and go at it. I bet this is where I am putting my blade off-center (if it was like you said centered to begin with).

Thanks for the information, I will re-visit this reply later tonight and probably spend the rainy evening sharpening knives. Sounds boring to most, but I am looking forward to some music, a beer, my dog chilling with me, and knives!
 
I just did a little work on a knife to explore micro-bevels. I used a Benchmade 9500 Mini Stryker in 154CM that had a 15° per side V grind from a previous sharpening. I noticed some edge damage when looking at it under the microscope, so I decided to create a project of it. First, I put a convex bevel, ranging from 16°-20° per side. Here are some pics:

Edge showing damage at 510x magnification:
damaged+edge+15+degrees.jpg
ZOOM
damaged+edge+15+degrees+2.jpg
ZOOM

Convex bevel:
convexed+edge+half+micron.jpg
ZOOM
The shading shows up the curvature really well. I could only image a small section of the blade at any given time due to the magnification.

1600-micro-bevel-a.jpg
ZOOM

At 230x magnification, it's easier to see both the convex portion of the bevel and the micro-bevel:
Convexed Edge with Micro Bevel.jpg

I'll have to add the regular photo in a followup....
 
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