New Lionsteel knife: M4

[Hard Knocks]

I should give a follow up on the kydex sheath, I think I've neglected to do that with the forum changeover and all.

The M4 has quite a bit of flare in the contour of the scales near the ricasso. Those of you already with this knife know what I'm talking about. Take a look at this spine-spot picture that KBA posted back on page 3, it shows it well:




Although the sheath I received from Eric was finished and fitted really well as always, I do not think the M4 is the best candidate for kydex. The fit was really tight, and I'm sure it was due to the flare you can see in the pic. Not the knife's fault, and not the sheathmaker's fault, it just needs a different option for this blade because of how the contouring of the handle requires so much movement of the kydex. That baby would sure snap in there though

Either a different approach to a kydex setup should be contrived, or maybe a better option here would be to have a nice, fitted leather pouch sheath that wouldn't require the strap. Also, I really liked the way the M4 felt in-hand, just rock solid, and I wouldn't change a thing about the scales for my hand. Cheers.

Dave

 

[A.Syamim]

Got my Lionsteel M4.
Very comfortable in hand.
Love it so much..!

 

[Korbin]

First off...I'll try to post pictures about the M4 asymmetric grind when I'll get back home (in 6 hours).

LATER EDIT : Got back earlier than expected, so here are the promised pictures :

Here you can see the knife as it arrived, fresh from the box.



This is the picture taken when I realised there was something off with the edge (can you spot it ?)



Now, finding the angle on the Wicked Edge Field & Sport Pro (about 25 degrees)...



First, marking with a black Sharpie the edge - for contrast.



Using the strop, after giving the edge two bevels (one 25 degrees, the other 15), on the way to put a convex edge.



Again, more stropping.



NO WAY TO REMOVE THE ASYMMETRY...



More stropping...



And more stropping...trying to figure out a solution for asymmetry...



A picture next to another knife, for showing the new edge.



After another 30 minutes of stropping/searching for solutions...



Figuring out what the ... was wrong (the text in the picture : "More metal here")



Same as above, a relaxed zoom level.



One proposed solution (the text : "I can remove (metal) from here, make it more abrupt, but we'll widen the edge")



A macro of the tip (again, can you spot something wrong ?)



The proposed solution (highlited is that it would mean to have a wider edge on the right side, to compensate the asymmetry)...



Right side of the blade, at the tip (text : LEFT - "The part with more meat/metal", RIGHT - "Here the cutting edge is already a little wider on the tip"



The left side of the blade, at the tip (text : LEFT - "To repair the symmetry we have to do it like on the other side", RIGHT - "The good side") ; what is highlighted here is that, in order that the tip to become symmetric, it would be necessary to make it wider and not equidistant.


CONCLUSION : Even if the angle is kept the same on a professional sharpening system (measured with a digital protractor, it is 15.05 degrees on the left and 15.11 degrees on the right), the asymmetry cannot be repaired. The culprit is the uneven grind, this particular model (mine...lucky me !) having too much metal on the left side.

As was already proven by another forum member, this is not a singular error : http://www.bladeforums.com/threads/new-lionsteel-knife-m4.1403725/page-5#post-17012012 .

In a grossly exaggerated illustration (forget my lack of artistic talent), this is how my blade looks like, seen from above :

 

[Korbin]

I'm looking at mine right now and the grind from the spine all the way to the edge (including the cutting edge both sides) is perfectly symmetrical.

The walnut handle slabs on my sample are tight as a tomb.

That's a firm second post. Did you contact Lionsteel?

Yeah, I know I'm a little "green" and I didn't contributed much for the community (therefore, "the firm second post"), but, as you'll find out, I already posted pictures to back up my statement. Glad to know your's OK (I would have been perfectly happy if mine was the same). And NO, I didn't contacted LionSteel - what good could come from that ? It's not like they'll offer to change it...

I find the issue about asymmetrical grind perplexing since I have so many LionSteel knives without such issues. More feedback from users is necessary.

Above I posted pictures to back up my claims. If those are not enough, please tell me what else can I do to prove I'm not a fraud.

I also stated that the wood handles do have a gap, and posts from alekseyshakaley and 4mer_FMF are confirming what I said. About the tip symmetry, you can look at the picture provided by TigFur and those in my post.

 

[Eagle Scout]

Here's mine looking down at the spine using a Pentax SMC wide optical 16mp lens in 1cm macro mode.

The glass is less than 1/4" from the knife. The knife is perpendicular to the camera lens. I'm providing a uniform light color background to increase contrast. Nothing to hide - nowhere to hide.

Looks good to me, for any production knife. M390 at $140, very good.

If you are unhappy with your sample, why not contact Lionsteel?

 

[Korbin]

Your blade is fine (a little jealous here...). My blade is not. I will contact LionSteel, but, after I already tried to alter the edge by sharpening it, I doubt they will be in the mood to talk about replacing it - not that I would have thought they would do that in the first place... But I will contact them. As stated, if my blade looked like yours, I would have been another happy customer. Also, here, in Europe (Romania), that knife costs 160 euros (that is 175 USD) - and that is half of the minimum wage.

What would have been better for me was this knife with a good kydex sheat (at least, the G10 model), a full-flat grind with a convex edge (like the Fallkniven A1 or F1) and the lack of that spine...jimping (?). And a kydex sheat would have been cheaper (again, chinese clone/fake makers use some good kydex sheats for knives in the 20-25 USD range) and would have complemented the G10 version better (the wooden handled ones are fine with the leather).

P.S. : I had to use my 5MP Motorola Moto G camera for the first 2 pictures, the other ones are made with a Samsung Note 4 ; I cannot make better ones becouse of the equipment I have, yet I think it is visible that my knife is defective.

 

[Jimbo75]

I'll admit I didn't read everything so sorry if this is irrelevant but by looking at your pics it's clear that in your attempt to fix the tip you've removed the material from the wrong side, the 15 degree bevel is far wider on the show side (~2-3 times wider). To fix the asymmetry the bulk of the material should have been removed from the non-show side replicating the original angle....you can easily even it up by going back to the 15 degree and working just this side.

I've had asymmetrical tips/edges from Lionsteel and it's a bugger because their edges are some of the thickest which makes them time consuming to rectify...

 

[Korbin]

I'll admit I didn't read everything so sorry if this is irrelevant but by looking at your pics it's clear that in your attempt to fix the tip you've removed the material from the wrong side, the 15 degree bevel is far wider on the show side (~2-3 times wider). To fix the asymmetry the bulk of the material should have been removed from the non-show side replicating the original angle....you can easily even it up by going back to the 15 degree and working just this side.

Please take a look at the black & white drawing I made in MS Paint ; now, do a exercise of imagination and sharpen that tip - would the edge width be the same on the left and the right side ? If the blade is not of the same thickness on the left side from the right (if using a imagenary axis of symmetry), you cannot obtain the same edge width. EXAMPLE : You have an egg ; you turn it with it's tip to the right (so the "fat" bottom is on your left side). Now, you want to "sharpen" the egg, at least it's new "top" - GIVEN YOU USE THE SAME AGLE ON THE LEFT AND RIGHT SIDE, WOULD THE RESULTING EDGE BE THE SAME WIDTH ?!

That is my problem with my sample - it's not the missaligned edge. It cannot be resolved with a proper sharpening. In order to make the blade symmetric, I would have to do what LionSteel didnt : to use a belt grinder and thin out the left side of the blade.

For the last time, people...please understand that, SOMETIMES, the manufacturer fukcs up ! I wish I wasn't the one to experience that, but I DO. They have a problem with the quality control - as you admited you had asymmetrical tips/edges from LionSteel (even if you could repaired them).

If I could not made myself understood it's my fault - english is not my native language, and I lack the vocabulary needed to be more specific. But the problem is there, I do have a defective/blemished blade ; I'm glad others don't experienced the problem I have, yet I felt the need to issue a warning - for me, buying a LionSteel product was a lottery, and I was the loser.

 

[RevDevil]

I don't let a little asymmetry bother me. I have a $700 custom folding knife from a very well known maker that is very asymmetrical. When I got it, I could not believe it left his shop that way, but it is what it is. It still cuts and does what its intended purpose is. I used to nit pick everything on a knife, regardless of price, but after owning and handling several hundred fixed blades and folders from customs to productions, I just came to the conclusion that there are slight variations from one piece to another. Sorry to read that this is so unsettling for you. My advice would be, the next time you get an item that is like this, contact the manufacturer and express your concerns. 9 out of 10 times they will be more than willing to make things right for you. It's rare that a manufacturer will tell you that nothing can be done. Second, please watch the language, no need for vulgarities.

 

[Korbin]

Sorry for being so fired-up, you are right and I apologize, I do have a porky mouth. I was just blown away of what I perceived as fanboyism - negating facts because someone's love/appreciation of one manufacturer.

Yes, my knife blade being asymmetrical is unsettling for me. Yes, it can still cut, BUT : imagine buying a new Ferrari , you park it and someone hits it LIGHTLY. Scratched paint, bent door - but it still works ; would it be the same thing ? Or, you pay an absurd sum of cash for a painting representing your portrait, and the artist paints Stalin/Golum/himself - would you be OK with that ? It would still be a nice painting, still serving it's purpose - to be looked at...

I also own a HI Chiruwa Ang Khola, handmade ; it is imperfect, the edge is not the sharpest, it has bumps and valleys - I love it ! ...But I expected those variations, it is HANDMADE.

In my case, paying 700$ for a custom knife and not getting perfection is unthinkable ; I would have refused the item. But it was your call, and you have a more relaxed attitude, so...good for you. In my case, I had expectations (all I read about LionSteel was how perfect their fit and finish is, given the price point) and I received a knife that, as long as for symmetry goes, is not on par with a cheap Mora or a chinese budget knife.

As for contacting LionSteel - I did it (even if I don't expect something possitive) two days ago... and still waiting for an answer :



LATER EDIT :
1) No answer from LionSteel for 4 days now.
2) After 5 days and a second email, I got an answer :

 

[RevDevil]

Looks like things are moving, give it some time.

 

[Korbin]

Looks like things are moving, give it some time.

Seems like it. Still no "return authorization" (I think it must be a registration number for the warranty procedure) - but, as you said...I must give it some time.

I'll also have to analize if it's worth to send it back ; shipping/transport will cost me arround 53.91 euros for one trip (that's what the courier charges for it's service to Maniago, Italy). Given the fact that I have to pay two transports (to Italy and back), that would total aprox. 108 euros. If they REPAIR it (and not replace it), they could charge me more - and that would make this as expensive as buying another knife, while remaining with the same one (but with less steel, as for "repairing" the grind they will have to sharpen it = removing material from blade).

But...will see what will happen. I will keep anyone interested informed - just so we'll know how LionSteel's customer service works.

 

[Hard Knocks]

But...will see what will happen. I will keep anyone interested informed - just so we'll know how LionSteel's customer service works.

I'm interested Korbin. Also, please know that when I posted earlier that my m4 had good, even grinds, that wasn't done to try to refute you or anything, just a passing along of information. I hope it all ends up working out for you. Thanks for keeping us up to date on this. Cheers.

 

[Zero Sum]

Seems like it. Still no "return authorization" (I think it must be a registration number for the warranty procedure) - but, as you said...I must give it some time.

I'll also have to analize if it's worth to send it back ; shipping/transport will cost me arround 53.91 euros for one trip (that's what the courier charges for it's service to Maniago, Italy). Given the fact that I have to pay two transports (to Italy and back), that would total aprox. 108 euros. If they REPAIR it (and not replace it), they could charge me more - and that would make this as expensive as buying another knife, while remaining with the same one (but with less steel, as for "repairing" the grind they will have to sharpen it = removing material from blade).

But...will see what will happen. I will keep anyone interested informed - just so we'll know how LionSteel's customer service works.

I am new to this thread, although I have been following it for quite some time. Korbin, may I ask what your total investment (in euros) is up to this point in the knife? I ask because I have ordered one in cocobolo but also considered one in G10 -and having a polished edge would be a nice bonus.....

 

[hon]

I had bought 3 lionsteel recently and so far I'm happy with their workmanship and quality, no issue with their products. I'm happy with the knives I received.
For any product we purchasing there will be chances that we might get something that don't meet our expectation. When I receive my item, I will check and go through it. If there any issue that really bother me, I will contact the seller for an exchange/refund or other resolution. That will be the better way to settle the issue.

 

[Korbin]

@ Zero Sum : So far, my total investment would be 154 euros (709,39 RON) representing the cost of the knife + 33 euros (150 RON) for the sharpening service. I didn't paid for transport, as the total sum of the package (192,62 euros) covered the minimum qualified for free shipping (76,77 euro). To note that the knife cost me less than 160 euros (the price on LionSteel's web page - I bought it from Lamnia.com.

But this is not all ; I will send the knife to the manufacturer, and, as stated on their site, "All costs associated with shipment to returned product are the responsibility of the customer" ; that will cost me at least 40 euros (180 RON) for both destinatinations (me > LionSteel and back). Also, if they conclude it was not them to blame, I'll also have to pay whatever they'll charge me, so...

Hope my answer helped you, ask me if I can do more.

@ hon : Glad to know you have more luck than me.

I did contacted the manufacturer (as they have to stand behind their product, not the seller) and I shared the experience as they answered with a long delay (I got a response on a second email after 5 days I sent the first one, and only after I told them there is an thread about their customer service here, on BladeForums - go figure !). You received a flawless blade (mine's not) and, if I walked in your shoes, I would have also been a happy customer.

As for my expectations... Well, I expected a symmetric knife. Made from M390, with G10 scales. I expected it to look like the pictures, and to cost the same (or less) as the one on LionSteel's site. Also, to be sharp, to have a leather sheat (brown) and to be new. And, if something would have gone wrong, I expected their customer service to respond rather quickly (not after 5 days, and after a second mail and the mention that there is a post that can damage their image...) and to want to satisfy their new customer.
I didn't thought a knife from a company with (at least from what so many of you talk about) a good track record regarding fine warkmanship and good QC to have a asymmetric edge - from an uneven grind ! I would expected that from a really cheap knife (like my Tramontina machetes - dirt cheap) or a Mora - but you know what ? - I have some Mora's, and they have symmetric edges !
Long story short, for me it's unthinkable for a manufacturer with a good name to skip on quality control (not the topic of this thread, but what would you think of a badly-sharpened/asymmetric Sebenza ?).

I'm happy you like their products, use them well and enjoy using the knives ! A well made M4 is a fine knife, affordable and with a good steel.

 

[Hard Knocks]

But this is not all ; I will send the knife to the manufacturer, and, as stated on their site, "All costs associated with shipment to returned product are the responsibility of the customer" ; that will cost me at least 40 euros (180 RON) for both destinatinations (me > LionSteel and back).

I am familiar with paying shipping back to a manufacturer for a warranty claim. I am not familiar with paying shipping when they return that item to me. If Lionsteel charges you shipping in both directions by the time this is all over, I would very much like to know. Please continue to update this, and thanks in advance.

 

[Korbin]

I am familiar with paying shipping back to a manufacturer for a warranty claim. I am not familiar with paying shipping when they return that item to me. If Lionsteel charges you shipping in both directions by the time this is all over, I would very much like to know. Please continue to update this, and thanks in advance.

Will do so. Maybe I got it wrong, you can check it (and correct me) on this link about LionSteel's warranty : https://www.lionsteel.it/n/k/en/eur/warranty/mm/default (3rd line from the bottom to the top).

 

[RamZar]

My LionSteel M4 with Cocobola Wood handle is very nice. Great price of $132 shipped. Leather sheath fits nice and snug.

Sharp blade with even grind. The sharpened edge is a little uneven resulting with a slightly off tip. In the handle it looks like the screws were tightenend a little too much and thus raising the affected area a little. None of these are issues that need me to send it back.

Overall, very happy with the value, quality, size, weight, materials and how well it fits the hand.

 

[RamZar]

Personally, when I get a new knife I look it over closely for any issues. If it's something major or I can't live with I contact the dealer immediately to send it back. If it's a defect some dealers pay for return shipping and I then have a choice of a full refund or a replacement. Of course, if I'm sending it back to the dealer I would not have made any adjustments or sharpening or disassembly.

I've sent knives back to LionSteel and the shipping from U.S. to Italy was expensive but I was not charged return shipping from Italy and LionSteel basically sent me new knives. Later, with TRE I was able to send the knives to LionSteel in San Diego in care of DPx Gear which cost me a lot less shipping. I don't know if returning it to DPx is an option now.