New Lionsteel knife: M4

[Hard Knocks]

Will do so. Maybe I got it wrong, you can check it (and correct me) on this link about LionSteel's warranty : https://www.lionsteel.it/n/k/en/eur/warranty/mm/default (3rd line from the bottom to the top).

I can't tell by the wording in the warranty, which states:

"All costs associated with shipment to returned product are the responsibility of the customer."

But I am guessing this is in reference to getting the blade back in their hands. Also, I'm encouraged by RamZar's statement below:

I've sent knives back to LionSteel and the shipping from U.S. to Italy was expensive but I was not charged return shipping from Italy and LionSteel basically sent me new knives.

^This seems logical. The issue that may come up is the attempted repair, as per return policy #8:

"Any manumission of the knife will invalidate the warranty, and the repair work will be charged to the customer. Examples of manumission are destructive tests, structural modification, improper sharpening."

However they do state at the end of the return policies:

"This rules are in place because of the many fraud attempts made by dishonest users."

Which I would say is in no way the case here, but this particular claim may still be at their discretion due to the attempt to fix it. Again, best of luck sir.

 

[Hard Knocks]

In the handle it looks like the screws were tightenend a litte too much and thus rasining the affected area a little.

Hello sir. Are you referring to how the area around the screws appears slightly bulged? My G10 version also looked like this, so I'm not sure that it's over-tightening, or simply how these scales are finished/produced. It is indeed a bit different than the recessing or flush fitment of fasteners that I am used to seeing on handle scale fitment. That is provided that I am understanding the raising you are referencing.

 

[RamZar]

In the handle it looks like the screws were tightenend a little too much and thus raising the affected area a little.

Hello sir. Are you referring to how the area around the screws appears slightly bulged? My G10 version also looked like this, so I'm not sure that it's over-tightening, or simply how these scales are finished/produced. It is indeed a bit different than the recessing or flush fitment of fasteners that I am used to seeing on handle scale fitment. That is provided that I am understanding the raising you are referencing.

Yes, I'm referring to the slight bulge around the handle screws.

No big deal. Perhaps that's just the way they intended to do it. Just looks odd/different.

 

[Hard Knocks]

I agree, it's much different, and I'm unsure how they'd even be produced in that manner. I also felt that this wasn't a problem, but more of something to be noted. Thank you for the reply.

 

[AmosPaul]

Korbin, the small amount of unevenness that you had in your original edge is not unusual to find in high quality knives. Most knives do not come with perfectly symmetric edges. You have to understand, companies do not have pools of workers with precision sharpening systems to precisely apply the final edge. That would be exceedingly expensive and drive up the cost of the knife.

More than likely the final edge is applied by hand using a belt grinder followed by a buffing wheel. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, and I understand your frustration, but in my humble opinion you are simply being too picky. The knife will cut fine, and once you starting using it you probably feel better about the whole situation.

 

[Korbin]

I am a "little" picky, I don't think I am "too". If I have the choice, I will always buy a good/undamaged thing/object, given that it is new.
Nobody here adressed the subject that, at a much, much lower price, you can buy a knife made by "X" manufacturer (if you need examples, and with the risk of repeating myself : Mora, Opinel, Enlan, SanRenMu, those chinese men who make Sebenza/Spyderco/Strider/Extrema Ratio clones - just to name a few of companies known for their price/performance ratio, or budget-friendly products) with symmetric edge.

I must state again (maybe I wasn't clear...) : that uneveness of the edge cannot be repaired (acording to my knowledge and the guy that sharpened my knife on Wicked Edge) with sharpening ; I would have not made such a big case if the resolve would had been that simple. It was the first thing I tried (and could be the reason LionSteel would consider it is a case of voiding the warranty). The edge is not asymmetric because of a faulty sharpening process of one guy, the blade wasn't grinded/beveled the same on both (left and right) sides. This is the conclusion of 2 knife enthusiasts (me and the sharpener), and, as all things in life, there is a posibility we are wrong - but I cannot be sure until my knife arrives in the producer's hands, to be evaluated.

If all my lamentation is in vain, and I am wrong, I will admit and beg pardon for all my statements - here and everywhere I talked about my issue. Until then, I support everything I said and, if needed, provide proof (if someone thinks I haven't done that).

@ AmosPaul : Maybe I should not search for high quality knives anymore (= expensive), as knives as cheap as 11$ can be symmetric and free of such blemishes (example : Enlan EL-01, a fair priced, good quality chinese folder).

 

[Eagle Scout]

Spent the day hiking in the woods yesterday.

 

[Hard Knocks]

Who did that sheath for you EagleScout? It looks like a sagewood, but I'm guessing from the MLL stamp that it's not. Looks good.

 

[Eagle Scout]

Who did that sheath for you EagleScout? It looks like a sagewood, but I'm guessing from the MLL stamp that it's not. Looks good.

Thanks, Mario at MLL Knives. It's an S1.

 

[Hard Knocks]

Thank you!

 

[Zero Sum]

So I finally got my M4 in Cocobolo from Blade HQ and I have to ask a troubling question. I have never had a knife in M390 so I wasn't personally familiar with its performance, edge retention, etc. but I did my research since Ankerson's Ranking of steels gave it high marks I decided I wanted it for my next purchase -and what better choice for a knife in M390 than LionSteels M4, right?

Well I am left scratching my head over how poorly my knife actually holds an edge. I have watched videos like Dutch Bushcraft Knives' review of the M4 where they have used it for 2 weeks and it can still push cut paper (albeit with some effort). There is absolutely no way the knife I received could go even a fraction of that length of time, even if only whittling soft wood. My other stainless steel blades (440HC, N690Co, etc..) hold a better edge MUCH longer.

I can resharpen it fairly quickly to hair shaving sharpness (which seems to go against what everyone says about M390 being so difficult to sharpen) with just a few strokes with ceramic rod, but once again after only using it to cut boneless cooked meat (to be specific a pork tenderloin), it won't shave or even push cut paper. None of my other knives of any blade steel underperform to that extent.

I am fearing the edge wasn't properly heat treated, but I am really hoping you gents could offer any other explanations. I have high regards for LS knives but this particular knife has been such a disappointment -especially after such much built-up anticipation before purchasing.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Eagle Scout]

The edge in the photo I posted above is still un-sharpened.

My M4 has been in the kitchen and in the field for months. It's made feather sticks out of fatwood and hardwoods. Just picked it up and edge cut a sheet of printer paper with it.

Looses it's edge after cutting boneless pork? The edge not properly heat treated?

Holy hell, you can't be serious.

I'm not clicking on this thread anymore.

 

[Zero Sum]

The edge in the photo I posted above is still un-sharpened.

My M4 has been in the kitchen and in the field for months. It's made feather sticks out of fatwood and hardwoods. Just picked it up and edge cut a sheet of printer paper with it.

Looses it's edge after cutting boneless pork? The edge not properly heat treated?

Holy hell, you can't be serious.

I'm not clicking on this thread anymore.

Hey I wasn't trying to be a dick with my post about the M4. I knew I risked ridicule by merely trying to ask for feedback but being needlessly flippant isn't really productive nor does it instill confidence in a new member like me that the readers of this forum are willing to offer any positive replies to sincere inquires about deficient knife performance. The edge on this blade repeatedly rolls when I cut (not chop) wood as soft as pine or even if I strop too vigorously trying to polish the edge. If you think there is absolutely no merit in my concern over this, then I won't go on anymore about it. Otherwise giving someone the benefit of the doubt until you know more might contribute to more productive dialogue. Just sayin. Have a good day.

 

[Korbin]

When I asked the guy that sharpened my knife about the heat treatment, he said the knife was "hard to remove metal from", "hard to sharpen" - even if, in his (and mine) opinion it wasn't cryo heat treated (from an optimal HT, the RC would have been 62, not 60...). He said it was fine, and hold up the edge adequately (as in, for a M390).

What you are describing is really disturbing and might suggest no HT at all (can you make a small video, post it on YouTube and give us the link - for Eagle Scout first, and second, for all of us reading this thread ?). As to "after only using it to cut boneless cooked meat (to be specific a pork tenderloin), it won't shave or even push cut paper"...no knife would dull this fast (if it's not made of lead...). Maybe you cutted the meat on a plate (porcelain/ceramic) and that dulled it, I don't know.

If you can confirm what you are saying (post some pics, a video - it would help GREATLY), I'm really sorry for you. I am, more or less, on the same boat (but my problem is not the HT). May I sugest contacting LionSteel ? For me, they answered with a long delay, but they did and invited me to send them the knife, to analize the problem (right now, the package is on transit in Budapest, Hungary).

@ Eagle Scout : You are the happy owner of a perfectly functional sample ; I'm glad for you, and you should enjoy using the knife - but if there are problems with the quality control at LionSteel, I think the information must be passed along - we all benefit from this. People posting about their problems with this model are not attacks on you. Like before, you defended the manufacturer and provided proof they don't always make mistakes, yet you have to understand that it's not always perfect.

If you read this thread from the begining, you'll see there are imperfect/blemished samples ; some care about it, some don't. Don't take it personal, Zero Sum posted what his problem is and asked for help - in the form of knowledge.

IT IS ALWAYS BEST TO BACK UP YOU STATEMENTS WITH FACTS/PROOF.

Example : As a steel snob, I am always looking for "the ultimate steel", so I stumbled upon SM-100, or Nitinol ( http://www.summitmaterials.com/sm-100/knives/ ). I thought I found the Holly Grail, and it didn't mattered what the cost would had been, BUT...then I found some more info - like this video on YouTube :

.

That guy stated that SM-100 is not that great, and he had a video to prove that.

 

[BD_01]

Z Zero Sum , regretfully, I've yet to put my M4 to any real test...but the day is coming!
As per my post above, I'm one of the blokes with a scale-tang relationship that's not perfect, and also one of the blokes that decided not to let it bother me. If/when it collects too much gunk, I'll pull the scales and lap them down a fraction of a millimeter. (The olive wood is sooo sexy!)

If the M390 performs like you say (bushcrafting this summer!), I won't be too happy. I'm hanging on to this thread to see if anyone else has had problems. One of my forum mates put his to use (chronicled in the REVIEWS forum) and it held up great.

If it holds up like my 204P knife, I'll be glad I chose this over a Nyala, which was the other fixed blade I was considering. (It's a price-performance curve thing, and I plan on beating it. )

Perhaps you could contact your dealer or Lionsteel? BladeHQ has a solid reputation, and maybe they'd like feedback.

 

[Korbin]

Today I bring news to those who are interested...

As mentioned earlier in this thread, I had a problem with the bevel/edge symmetry on my LionSteel M4 so, long story short, I sent the knife back to LionSteel in Italy for evaluation and repair/replacement.

I sent the knife on 12.05.2017, and they received it on 19.05.2017 ; shipping cost was about 20.88 euro/23.44 USD/95 RON.



I sent also 2 emails to LionSteel customer service on 15 and 18.05.2017, and received an answer after 9 days (on 23.05.2017) ; the "answer" contained just the formal speach ("Dear customer, blah-blah"...) and a tracking number - no clue about what was done, what was their conclusion, etc.



The package was sent by LionSteel thru FedEx International Priority (must had been a fortune !) on 23.05.2017 and arrived toady, 25.05.2017 ! (darn fast, if you ask me, from Italy to Romania).



I opened the nicely packed cardbox and, inside, was a new LionSteel :





As you can see, the leather sheat is a different model than the original one I had. The bevel/edge is now symmetric, and everything is great.

So...here comes the part where I apologize to LionSteel. Also, this is for Hard Knoks - you were right, I only paid for shipment to them and not back to me. LionSteel customer service works (even if they have to do something about being more...responsive).

I still think they can, sometimes (as in my case), make mistakes - yet they proved (to me at least) they are willing to make it right.

So, thank you LionSteel and everybody that had the patience to answer my angry posts.

@ Zero Sum and 4mer_FMF : Some news about the heat treat ? How does the edge holds up ?

 

[hon]

If lionsteel didn't change the leather sheath for m4. That should be a M2 leather sheath. Go google M2 with leather sheath photo you will know. Other than leather belt loop design different, the single stitch for M2 sheath and double stitches sheath for M4.

 

[Korbin]

Thank you. You must be right . I won't say they made another mistake...I just really don't care so much about the sheat, I'll soon have a kydex one to complement the knife. Still...can't it be they changed the sheat design ? I mean...the blade shape and lenght of M2 would be different of that of M4, is it not ?

 

[Hard Knocks]

I still think they can, sometimes (as in my case), make mistakes - yet they proved (to me at least) they are willing to make it right.

Korbin, thank you very much for the follow up. I am extremely glad you have a good blade now. As we are all human and fallible, I try to judge companies not on whether a mistake is made, but by how they right that mistake when it happens, and am therefore pleased to see this outcome. Kind regards sir.

 

[BD_01]

@ Zero Sum and 4mer_FMF : Some news about the heat treat ? How does the edge holds up ?

No news yet. Heading to the backcountry mid-late summer. I'd like to hear it if anyone else is having problems.

K Korbin SUPER excited that Lionsteel treated you so well! Without re-reading the thread, hadn't you stoned it in an attempt to straighten out the grind? If so, Lionsteel exceeded my expectations for even the very best warranty/customer service.

How about this, YOU go out and use it hard then report back and tell us how it holds up--that way I won't have to wait for my summer trips to find out--LOL!