"Old Knives"

That Camillus cleaned up nice Charlie.:)
Wazu, I still use the Leatherman that we got as a safety award at the US Steel(I think) blast furnace rebuild.Cool knife.

Nice Wostenholm pruners Lee and N. Here's the stamp on this Wostenholm,I'm curious about timeframe. I suppose earlier than 1890, per lack of country of origin,although that may not be definite proof.It is somewhat worn and was sharpened as to remove the "hawkbill". The pile side stag being "gnarlier" and thus remaining more intact.

Lee does your pruner have IXL in the tang stamp, doesn't seem to? Seems we have three different earlier stamps by the same company. then we have the early "Celebrated" stamp I know of...

I concluded it is an early example,as the Schatt and Morgan,and the Holley I have are early knives and are smaller than all the other examples. I know that is little to go on, but it's my guess.:)
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Beautiful example!!!
 
That Camillus cleaned up nice Charlie.:)
Wazu, I still use the Leatherman that we got as a safety award at the US Steel(I think) blast furnace rebuild.Cool knife.

Nice Wostenholm pruners Lee and N. Here's the stamp on this Wostenholm,I'm curious about timeframe. I suppose earlier than 1890, per lack of country of origin,although that may not be definite proof.It is somewhat worn and was sharpened as to remove the "hawkbill". The pile side stag being "gnarlier" and thus remaining more intact.

Lee does your pruner have IXL in the tang stamp, doesn't seem to? Seems we have three different earlier stamps by the same company. then we have the early "Celebrated" stamp I know of...

I concluded it is an early example,as the Schatt and Morgan,and the Holley I have are early knives and are smaller than all the other examples. I know that is little to go on, but it's my guess.:)
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Wostenholm did use different tang stamps on different knives during the same time periods and we can't use the "England" stamp (or lack of) as proof of pre/post 1890, as you stated. Some knives which ended up in the U.S. may not have intended to originally. The stamp type on your Farmers jack is a bit unique in that it was not used on many knives in the late 1800s to early 1900s, but it was used on your knife from at least 1885 to 1908. (picture enclosed from a 1908 catalog). By 1915 the blade tang stamp for the Farmers Jack had changed from "GEORGE" over "WOSTENHOLM" over "I-XL CUTLERY" to "I-XL GEORGE" over "WOSTENHOLM" over "Sheffield"
Unfortunately, there is no mention of integral liners (only steel liners) in any catalogs. The integral liner is an interesting topic which should be explored further.

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Wostenholm did use different tang stamps on different knives during the same time periods and we can't use the "England" stamp (or lack of) as proof of pre/post 1890, as you stated. Some knives which ended up in the U.S. may not have intended to originally. The stamp type on your Farmers jack is a bit unique in that it was not used on many knives in the late 1800s to early 1900s, but it was used on your knife from at least 1885 to 1908. (picture enclosed from a 1908 catalog). By 1915 the blade tang stamp for the Farmers Jack had changed from "GEORGE" over "WOSTENHOLM" over "I-XL CUTLERY" to "I-XL GEORGE" over "WOSTENHOLM" over "Sheffield"
Unfortunately, there is no mention of integral liners (only steel liners) in any catalogs. The integral liner is an interesting topic which should be explored further.

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Interesting... Your points are well taken Herder - lots of tang stamps and hard to date even without England as you note... though my guess is for the most part if indeed England is on stamp I would say post-1890 and without perhaps raises questions pending final retail location... The integral liner and bolster is indeed an important question as I alluded to as well - this one is abit harder to research given that info was probably not included much in the catalogs (as you noted) and therefore may take alot of "reading" many Sheffield knives from early to later makers with some idea as to dates of production... only way may be in "hand" evaluation in order to answer the question or at least come to a conclusion... though in my opinion I will say in general integral liners and bolsters were probably more abundant pre-1860... again I originally read this in Levine's Guide but not sure of his research reference (maybe a personal communication from Geoffrey Tweedale but not included in Tweedale's book)... Hmnnn.... but as you said Herder an interesting topic deserving of further exploration :) ...
 
I don't have time to post scans right now,but the 1885 Wostenholm catalog reproduction ©1976 I have shows all three of these stamps.I haven't examined it closely since I got it,or I could have answered some of my questions.:D

Herder is one of the definitive sources on European cutlery,thanks friend.
And Lee is very astute,if we could only get him to open up. He he he

IXL
George
Wostenholm
Sheffield

George
Wostenholm
Sheffield

George
Wostenhom
IXL Cutlery
 
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Interesting... Your points are well taken Herder - lots of tang stamps and hard to date even without England as you note... though my guess is for the most part if indeed England is on stamp I would say post-1890 and without perhaps raises questions pending final retail location... The integral liner and bolster is indeed an important question as I alluded to as well - this one is abit harder to research given that info was probably not included much in the catalogs (as you noted) and therefore may take alot of "reading" many Sheffield knives from early to later makers with some idea as to dates of production... only way may be in "hand" evaluation in order to answer the question or at least come to a conclusion... though in my opinion I will say in general integral liners and bolsters were probably more abundant pre-1860... again I originally read this in Levine's Guide but not sure of his research reference (maybe a personal communication from Geoffrey Tweedale but not included in Tweedale's book)... Hmnnn.... but as you said Herder an interesting topic deserving of further exploration :) ...


That's correct and I wasn't clear in stating that any knife with an "England" stamp should date to after 1890. But, It is certainly possible that a country stamp (England) could have been stamped on a knife prior to 1890 for reasons other than export to the U.S.

I have been digging through old Sheffield folders and have found several with integral bolsters and liners. Have also poured through several books and have found good evidence of English knives with integral bolsters and liners dating possibly as late as 1910. The best information comes mostly from English military folders, but that would take awhile to show everything intended. Enclosed is a different example in the form of a Barlow knife. This model stamped "S. E. Oates" (Squire Elijah Oates) was most likely produced from circa 1875 to 1891 when S. E. Oates ran the company. S. E. Oates died in 1891 and the company must have been run by "Joseph Allen" for a short time after. This Oates Barlow has no "England" stamp and most likely dates from 1875 to 1890 (pre-Tariff) and does have integral bolsters / liners. An accompanying ad from 1899 shows a similar Oates Barlow model with the exception of an "England" stamp and "Joseph Allen" tang stamp. It would be great to know if anyone has this "England" stamped variation to see if it has integral bolsters / liners.
I do not have the patience to go through the 800 pages of the Barlow thread. :)
Maybe waynorth has one??? (or several) :)

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I don't have time to post scans right now,but the 1885 Wostenholm catalog reproduction ©1971 I have shows all three of these stamps.I haven't examined it closely since I got it,or I could have answered some of my questions.:D

Herder is one of the definitive sources on European cutlery,thanks friend.
And Lee is very astute,if we could only get him to open up. He he he

IXL
George
Wostenholm
Sheffield

George
Wostenholm
Sheffield

George
Wostenhom
IXL Cutlery


Thanks, and I really enjoy the forum because so many people add different pieces to various puzzles. :)
I'm constantly learning new things and insights from others.
 
As long as you are discussing old SEO&S markings and integral bolsters , I thought I would show mine . I think that the dating of SEO&S knives is helped a little when you you know that the &S is for and Son and he was born in the 1880's I believe . Mine has the Integral Bolsters and the ENGLAND on the blade . Therefor , I think it is from sometime after 1891 . Please pardon the inclusion of an old Russell in my old pictures .

The SEO&S is on the left

Bottom side


Harry
 
Nice additions all :thumbsup: ... I really find it interesting that all the examples of post-1860 integral liners so far are Barlows or military knives as Neal pointed out... hmnn - is that based on the design and the possibility it was easier to make these with integral liners? or perhaps it added durability to these knives having a solid liner/bolster?.. I imagine there are more hawkbill pruners post-1860 with integral liners as well...

And Lee is very astute,if we could only get him to open up. He he he


LOL... Lyle I'm trying to come out of my "shell" :D ....
 
There were an awful lot of short lived and obscure knife brands in the United States throughout the later half of the 1800s and first half of the 1900s.
Here is one such example which is marked "Carrier Cutlery Co. Elmira N.Y." circa 1900 to 1920.

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Nice Carrier. I grew up on the other side of the hill from Elmira, and have tried to find one to add to my collection.
 
Nice Carrier. I grew up on the other side of the hill from Elmira, and have tried to find one to add to my collection.

Thanks, Do you know if there were any other cutlery companies aside from Carrier and Robeson which were once located in Elmira?
 
Oh my, is that a beauty!!! And that etch, fantastic.
Was there ever a Physicians Knife thread?
 
Was there ever a Physicians Knife thread?

There have been several, but having just looked at a couple of them, many/most of the pics are down because of Photobucket :( Maybe time to start a fresh one :) :thumbsup:

Beautiful example Charlie :thumbsup:
 
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