paper sharpening wheels - when your time is important to you

I had Richard J sharpen my ZT 0350 on his
Paper wheels a few years back and it was
Easily the sharpest knife that I owned and I
Came here to see if Richard would sharpen
2 of my current edc knives but it seems like
His medical issues have still kept him away
From the forums and so the search goes on
For a sharpening service! Does anyone have
Any recommendations for a company or a
Person that offers knife sharpening ? Thanks
For your time guys

Frank

P.S. the recommendations need to be reliable and
Have a good customer service record as I have lost
A knife or two to people who are less than honest and I can't aford to lose any more knives
 
Hi folks,

Relatively new to the board but have read. I thought I'd share my paper wheel journey and ask for advice on improvement.

I got into sharpening just a couple years ago. I started free hand with sandpaper taped to a board. As a teenager long ago I tried a 2 sided diamond paddle (smith's?) on a Gerber AR no-name knives and didn't have the patience.
Then on the handgun side of things I polished a feed ramp of a pistol barrel to a near mirror shine with just a $3 rouge cloth and my pinky. Well, my both pinkies, both index fingers, then a pencil eraser when my fingers were sore and swollen.
I was surprised at the power of rouge - ferrous oxide? - such simple abrasive compound can change metal.
So I bought a 1 pound block of rouge/wax off amazon and rubbed it on a cardboard box and used it to "strop" my knifes. My only real user was a Kershaw Cryo that has now been with me for 5+ years I think.
It went well but after a while due to the cardboard softening and my imperfect technique, I ended up with a blunt convex edge. It was shiny however :) Then I'd have to return to the sandpaper.

So I saw these paper wheels and I bought them - and my first (and only) grinder at the same time. Actually the grinder was a gift from my wife. She's perfect.
My rationale and current thoughts on the paper wheel niche were this: It's like stropping - not too aggressive. More consistency as no movement at the start and finish of a stroke like freehand work would have.
Unfortunately I took advice meant for stone wheels in preparing the paper wheels. I used the diamond shaper tool (to true up a grinding wheel) and made a rounded surface with the middle of each wheel sticking out forward for both the polishing and grit wheel. I stopped partway on the grit wheel because it was removing too much grit.
But the polishing wheel worked and continues to do so for 8Cr13MOv, 400c and 154 CM. I actually get away with using the polishing wheel only on those and the blades push cut phone book paper easily. I try to keep factory angles, try not to press hard, and keep the polishing wheel loaded before each use.

My difficulty comes in 2 areas.
1: I've never been able to get a precise angle. I know some folks label their wheels with lines and hold the blade horizontal to the wheel. But the primary bevels kind of confuse me as to what is "horizontal" when I try this. And I hate math. 8 inch wheels. So I alternate between trying to find the top of the wheel and holding it at a diagonal across the wheel at the correct angle like I'm freehand sharpening on sandpaper, or horizontally trying to look for when the shadow of the cutting edge disappears and taking that as contact to the cutting surface.

2: I now have my first S30v knife and I'll tell you the buffing wheel alone has NOT been enough. In fact I think maybe it tends to round / blunt the apex. Previously I've used 1000 rpm's with great success on the softer steel, so I tried ~2,500 with not a ton of improvement. I've broken down and used the grit wheel and while it's better it's not fast enough to thin this thick factory edge. So I went back to a freehand diamond paddle (smith's with the holes on surface) and thinned the shoulder like I wanted to, but it was slow.

How do you all achieve the precision to reprofile to exact angles?
Any benefit if I were to switch from white buffing compound to the red block I have?

My thoughts about polishing wheel and low rpm's: I kept it low to avoid removing too much metal. But I believe it leads to a tendency to push harder for results and a more bumpy surface. And I believe the "give" or softness of the surface is reduced at higher RPM's so it would lead to less convexing if I cranked it up, and less polishing of areas above the grind.

thoughts?
 
Here's my .02 (answers in blue)...

...
... Unfortunately I took advice meant for stone wheels in preparing the paper wheels. I used the diamond shaper tool (to true up a grinding wheel) and made a rounded surface with the middle of each wheel sticking out forward for both the polishing and grit wheel. I stopped partway on the grit wheel because it was removing too much grit.
...
My difficulty comes in 2 areas.
1: I've never been able to get a precise angle. I know some folks label their wheels with lines and hold the blade horizontal to the wheel. But the primary bevels kind of confuse me as to what is "horizontal" when I try this. And I hate math. 8 inch wheels. So I alternate between trying to find the top of the wheel and holding it at a diagonal across the wheel at the correct angle like I'm freehand sharpening on sandpaper, or horizontally trying to look for when the shadow of the cutting edge disappears and taking that as contact to the cutting surface.

"Horizontal" is the blade being horizontal... think holding the handle horizontal. IOW, ignore the bevel angle.

I hold the blade horizontal, and use a "laser guide" to set the angle on the wheel...

LaserPaperWhl.jpg


... but you will have to do the math at least once (or some method), to set and mark the angles, so you know where to set the guide.


2: I now have my first S30v knife and I'll tell you the buffing wheel alone has NOT been enough. In fact I think maybe it tends to round / blunt the apex. Previously I've used 1000 rpm's with great success on the softer steel, so I tried ~2,500 with not a ton of improvement. I've broken down and used the grit wheel and while it's better it's not fast enough to thin this thick factory edge. So I went back to a freehand diamond paddle (smith's with the holes on surface) and thinned the shoulder like I wanted to, but it was slow.

I'm thinking you might have messed up your grit wheel, when you used the "diamond shaper wheel". The grit wheel has no issue with S30V.

How do you all achieve the precision to reprofile to exact angles? (See above laser guide).
Any benefit if I were to switch from white buffing compound to the red block I have?

A lot of "red compound" is actually for polishing softer metals... so it may not work as well. The standard compound is pretty effective.

My thoughts about polishing wheel and low rpm's: I kept it low to avoid removing too much metal. But I believe it leads to a tendency to push harder for results and a more bumpy surface. And I believe the "give" or softness of the surface is reduced at higher RPM's so it would lead to less convexing if I cranked it up, and less polishing of areas above the grind.

The wheels are meant to be used at a higher RPM in my opinion. (Like the directions state).

thoughts?
 
I'm posting this for Richard at Mack's request, hopefully this works guys :)

[video=youtube;6759BSQeG8Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6759BSQeG8Y&feature=youtu.be[/video]
 
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For you guys using paper wheels to sharpen..... How do you maintain you angle? Is their a jig available? This is all new to me.
 
i have tried 1/3 hp motors and they are not enough even with the speed. go to lowes hardware and buy the variable speed version they have. a lot of members have found out the lower rpm works better with the wheels.
I run my wheels on a 1/5hp 3450rpm 6" Craftsman grinder. Works fine for me.
 
you can also use the slotted wheel to buff folder blades around the pivot hole so they open smoothly. make sure to tape up the blade really well so you dont end up with stitches. i have even used it to buff the sear on my pistol to make it really smooth.
Should work well on feed ramps too, especially if one of the shoulders on the wheel is a bit rounded. I've been using my dremmel with a felt wheel and chrome oxide
 
This special version of the Spyderco Paramilitary 2 in CPM-M4 steel & carbon fiber is in use with a Dutch knife forum member.
A small fraction of the tip had broken off and the apex sustained some damage (see pic 3)
This is how the knife looked before sharpening.
You can click 2 X on each pic for more detail.





After sharpening.
First i ground the old apex flat on the Tormek Blackstone until all damage in the apex was gone & there was a new point.
Then i made a new edge with 15 micron diamond compound on a Paper Wheel, which was then refined with 6, 3, and 1 micron diamond compound on dedicated Paper Wheels to a full mirror.
The new edge measures 30 degrees inclusive and is hairwhittling sharp.
You can click 2 X on each pic for more detail.











 
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Very nice! By the way I felt like I needed to update a little. While I haven't set up anything like laser guidance yet :) I've tried higher RPM and what do you know it even works on S110v even around just the 3,000 RPM range.

Now here is another question, were your paper wheels (I got a Grizzly set) REALLY hard to get on your grinder? Mine were and I don't feel like I could ever remove them without damaging them. So now There are times I wish I had my bench grinder back and I don't.
 
New guy here, I have struggled with a sharpmaker for several years thinking the equipment I needed to sharpen really dull edges and get really sharp was out of my price range. A couple weeks ago a family member needed some knives sharpened and I decided it was time to figure out some sort of setup. That's when I learned about the paper wheels and decided to give them a shot.
Got set up yesterday and so far the first half dozen cheap kitchen knives I've sharpened have been sharper than I've ever achieved before. So far I've been limited on time but the early results have me excited to practice more.
Thanks to the folks who have contributed to this thread, I've learned a lot!
 
Dustar Model 1 Arad 67 Commemorative combat knife from a collector.
The factory "edge" was very rough and also still had a burr so thick that i could lift the entire knife from the table by hooking it with my finger nail.
Edge angle was +/- 45 degrees inclusive which i left intact as the customer did not want wider bevels.
After grinding the apex flat on the Tormek Blackstone the edge was resharpened on a Paper Wheel with 15 micron diamond compound then deburred with a second Paper Wheel with 3 micron diamond compound, an the new edge can just treetop the hairs on the back of my hand.
Probably the most wear resistant D2 steel i have sharpened so far.



 
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Dustar Model 1 Arad 67 Commemorative combat knife from a collector.
The factory "edge" was very rough and also still had a burr so thick that i could lift the entire knife from the table by hooking it with my finger nail.
Edge angle was +/- 45 degrees inclusive which i left intact as the customer did not want wider bevels.
After grinding the apex flat on the Tormek Blackstone the edge was resharpened on a Paper Wheel with 15 micron diamond compound then deburred with a second Paper Wheel with 3 micron diamond compound, an the new edge can just treetop the hairs on the back of my hand.
Probably the most wear resistant D2 steel i have sharpened so far.




Looks great. Do you have any more info about the diamond compounds you are using? I wouldn't mind trying something other than the white rouge that comes with the wheels. I can't get quite a perfect mirror edge with it.
 
On page 83 of this thread i've described how i do things, together with the website of a dependable US based dealer of diamond products.
 
This vintage Al Mar Applegate Fairbairn dagger from a display collection had factory edges which were rather coarse, had a few flat spots, and a flattened point.
Since the "R" from Rex Applegate's signature was already quite close to the +/- 50 degrees inclusive factory edge i chose not to reprofile but instead just polish the existing bevels a bit with successively 15.0 micron, 3.0 micron, and 1.0 micron diamond compound on dedicated Paper Wheels.
Both new edges can shave the hair on the back of my hand on skin level.
( click each pic 2 x for a bit more detail)









 
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