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How To Put an End to the F&F and +% in the exchange.

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Listen, we are all adults here (well, for the most part, anyway).

I don't need a babysitter to watch over how I conduct my business.

I don't like the idea of moderators having extra work just so people don't act irresponsibly with their own transactions.

If you are dishonest enough to use the "NET to me" or "Plus whatever%" so be it. You won't get business from me or many others.

If you purchase from people who use the "NET to me" or "Plus whatever%" you are part of the problem.

If you're dishonest enough to ask for the F&F bollox, You won't get business from me or many others.

If you're stupid enough to purchase from dishonest people, don't come complaining to me.

Now that said...

I am coming around to the idea making it a BF rule (no fees, f&f). I don't like the idea of having more rules, but it is becoming clearer for me that some people are incapable of acting like responsible, honest adults without being threatened with some form of punishment.

Sad, really.
 
List one price...pay thru g&s (bc a knife is a "goods" correct?...like a tool) and go about your day...no harm no foul. Treat others with respect and that's what you will get in return...no real mystery with this to me, but others insist on making it so.
 
Railsplitter said:
Honestly, if I was running the show at Paypal that's exactly what I would do. If people want to abuse the service then they can pay for it like everybody else. No more Mister Nice Guy.
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I'm right there with you Rick. But successful businesses like PayPal can't dominate their respective markets by doling out righteousness to the masses. They thrive by offering the most attractive options at the cheapest prices while garnering the largest profit margins. They've got it actuarially gamed out to where the real Mr. Nice Guys <honest, working folk> tote the note for the bottomfeeders.

When I was younger <this was the 70's> there was a small independent chain of department stores in my neck of the woods called Hill's.
They prided themselves on not accepting personal checks nor credit cards. They went to great lengths to try to educate their customers to their overhead, and they marketed it as, "We eliminate the cost of fraud to US and pass the savings on to YOU." Well, long story short-- they were run out of town by an upstart chain called Wal-Mart.;)

And as another relic of my youth, Paul Harvey, would say...."And that's the rest of the story..."
 
Armadew said:
Listen, we are all adults here (well, for the most part, anyway).

I don't need a babysitter to watch over how I conduct my business.

I don't like the idea of moderators having extra work just so people don't act irresponsibly with their own transactions.

If you are dishonest enough to use the "NET to me" or "Plus whatever%" so be it. You won't get business from me or many others.

If you purchase from people who use the "NET to me" or "Plus whatever%" you are part of the problem.

If you're dishonest enough to ask for the F&F bollox, You won't get business from me or many others.

If you're stupid enough to purchase from dishonest people, don't come complaining to me.

Now that said...

I am coming around to the idea making it a BF rule (no fees, f&f). I don't like the idea of having more rules, but it is becoming clearer for me that some people are incapable of acting like responsible, honest adults without being threatened with some form of punishment.

Sad, really.
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Well said. You see it all over the exchange, the problems with it in the GB&U, and people who are fine with it in this very thread. Why do so many people act so irresponsibly, sellers and buyers, and use F&F? Before serious consideration of making a BFC rule against it, I'd like to see more education on the subject. Like a warning at the top of every single ad in big letters: Don't use F&F etc...If that doesn't curb the problem perhaps it is time for a rule, a very stern rule. One warning and then gone.
 
Sometimes it's humorous to watch people foolishly think that have actually gained something by adding 3%, or by cheating paypal through F&F. The monetary part of our lives, is just a numbers game. There really is no permanent fixed gain or loss. Everything is in a state of flux, and it's really about how you play the game by being honest. You can shuffle the deck, change the equation, and then get any result that you want, or rationalize it your own way. At the end of the day, if you've played an honest game, then you are the real winner.
 
I wouldn't mind paying the fee so much if people weren't low-balling...and raising the price to include the fees might make my ads unattractive.

Its discouraging when someone beats you down $25-50 on a price to then have to eat another $12-15 in PP fees and another $10-15 in shipping. At the end of the day I can always refuse an offer, but when that's all you have, sometimes you take what you can get.

I don't have an answer to this problem other than stopping the practice myself, include fees in my prices, have full disclosure in the ad, and just hope for the best.

I'm just honestly surprised at how much of a turn off it was for people to see the "net to me" verbiage. My first purchase on BF, the seller made me add 3% for G&S and I just assumed it was normal since it was protection for me and it wasn't that much money. From that day forward I thought this was normal behavior for the exchange. This practice of passing on the cost of doing business to the customer is NOTHING new. Haven't you ever used a credit card to buy something online, only to have 3.5% added during checkout for using a credit card? Don't you see 2 different prices for gas when you fill up these days- cash and credit price?

As others have said, if you don't like it use a money order.

*beats dead horse*
 
If the PP fees are enough to lose a sale, I'd ignore that buyer.
It's ~ $3 on $100. Come on.
 
Mercules said:
I wouldn't mind paying the fee so much if people weren't low-balling...and raising the price to include the fees might make my ads unattractive.

Its discouraging when someone beats you down $25-50 on a price to then have to eat another $12-15 in PP fees and another $10-15 in shipping. At the end of the day I can always refuse an offer, but when that's all you have, sometimes you take what you can get.

I don't have an answer to this problem other than stopping the practice myself, include fees in my prices, have full disclosure in the ad, and just hope for the best.

I'm just honestly surprised at how much of a turn off it was for people to see the "net to me" verbiage. My first purchase on BF, the seller made me add 3% for G&S and I just assumed it was normal since it was protection for me and it wasn't that much money. From that day forward I thought this was normal behavior for the exchange. This practice of passing on the cost of doing business to the customer is NOTHING new. Haven't you ever used a credit card to buy something online, only to have 3.5% added during checkout for using a credit card? Don't you see 2 different prices for gas when you fill up these days- cash and credit price?

As others have said, if you don't like it use a money order.

*beats dead horse*
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Knife collecting can be a good way to store wealth, if you're in it for the long term. It's rare to realize short term gains. Since I've been collecting knives for some 20 years, I can sell the discontinued models higher, and the more recent models lower. I may lose up to 25% on one, and then to compensate, sell a off few rare pieces, at a gain of 10% to 15% each. In three years, I've sold about $25k, of my collection, through BF member contacts, without ever having a single problem. I always give an all inclusive price to the buyer. Through this method of cost averaging, I've only lost about 2%, which is the same amount that I've lost in bank savings, money markets, or mutual funds. My point is that, very few people realize short term gains anymore, and you have think about the long term picture. It's also the same with gun collecting. The one good thing about losing a small amount of money, is that there is no tax liability.
 
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Mercules said:
As others have said, if you don't like it use a money order.
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That statement works both ways...
If you don't want to abide by PayPal's User Agreement, don't accept payments through their service. Wait for money orders to arrive in the mail, or get your own account for processing credit cards.
 
Mercules said:
Haven't you ever used a credit card to buy something online, only to have 3.5% added during checkout for using a credit card?
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Actually, no. Never.
Mercules said:
Don't you see 2 different prices for gas when you fill up these days- cash and credit price?
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Again, no... not usually. I recently pulled into a station that did charge extra; and, if it hadn't been 2am with nothing else open, I would have gone elsewhere. I put in $5 worth - it was enough to get me where I needed to go & back home. I filled the tank the next day at a different station, and won't be returning to the other one except under similar circumstances.
Mercules said:
At the end of the day I can always refuse an offer, but when that's all you have, sometimes you take what you can get
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I have a somewhat different attitude regarding sales - I don't pad my prices to allow for dickering (my phone changed that to douching; and I was tempted to leave it that way). Sometimes I do price on the high side - because I've either decided I don't want to lose money on a particular item, or I believe I can sell it for that price based on other recent ads. Either way, the bottom line is that I don't care if it sells...selling knives is not how I pay my bills or feed my family. If a knife doesn't sell at my posted price, I'm more likely to pull the ad & try again when I think about it than to make serial reductions in my price.
 
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Add the fees to the price along with shipping and insurance (unless you prefer to self insure) costs, post the price and be done with it. Ignore low ballers.
 
Instead of all the add on language it just seems so simple for a seller to post an all inclusive price that they will accept via ANY payment method (by that I mean PayPal G&S, MO, Cash, Sea Shells, Platted Pubic Hair etc whichever are acceptable) including US shipping/insurance (happy to have an added fee for International ;) ) No ambiguity nothing left unclear simple for both parties. Leaves both parties covered, no maths to do.
 
I know this is another subject...but it's related. What's with all the sellers trying to get the buyers to pay for the insurance. Again, it is the seller being protected, not the buyer; so why should the buyer have to pay??
 
Same reason as the rest of this...'cause some people are shady :(

~Chip
 
hhmoore said:
I know this is another subject...but it's related. What's with all the sellers trying to get the buyers to pay for the insurance. Again, it is the seller being protected, not the buyer; so why should the buyer have to pay??
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It's just a bunch of misdirected bull. The insurance is for the seller. Asking the buyer to purchase, is just another gross manipulation.
 
palonej said:
If the PP fees are enough to lose a sale, I'd ignore that buyer.
It's ~ $3 on $100. Come on.
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And that right there says you are not to be trusted to have a buyers best interest at heart since you have no problem breaching a contract you signed when you agreed to abide by a tos agreement and then ignore it what else will you do that may be dishonest.
 
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Tagging people as being dishonest and untrustworthy for not abiding by PayPal's TOS is a bit extreme. I don't buy it for a minute.
 
adamlau said:
Tagging people as being dishonest and untrustworthy for not abiding by PayPal's TOS is a bit extreme. I don't buy it for a minute.
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So when there is actual, undeniable proof that they are dishonest, you don't buy it?
 
I didn't read the entire thread. It started well with valuable insight and encouraging ideas, but as most threads the hyenas turn it into the misery they exist in.
As my most recent published incident, also hijacked by hyenas, I inquired with PayPal in what measures could be taken to not send or receive F&F. Now for the PayPal Crusaders who live the holier than thou lifestyle within every measurement of their being, its quite simple, you call and ask. Now, for the rest of us living in a torn world of right and wrong, and the shame we must come to as we admit trusted our fellow man, we have to submit a list of our "friends and family". I did this, and I'll say, not a member of this forum was submitted.
I don't know if people feel fancy when "Net to me" @ a certain percent I make up in mind is used, or the math is a stumper. I do know new PayPal users have a cap on their accounts regarding total amount received. So, available funds are not availble and you may have a bill to pay forcing a F&F request.
If you're selling put it in the price..done
 
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