How To Put an End to the F&F and +% in the exchange.

[palonej]

I'm hoping your comment was not directed at me.
I'm in the NO F&F or net to me camp.
My comment you quoted is stating PP protection is quite inexpensive for what you are getting and why anyone would give up that protection boggles my mind.
Same thing with sellers thinking that posting a price w/o the fees added makes their sale more attractive.
It's ~ $3 on $100, small price to pay.
I would appreciate you letting me know you were not calling me dishonest. I am one who has not breached that contract.
Joe

And that right there says you are not to be trusted to have a buyers best interest at heart since you have no problem breaching a contract you signed when you agreed to abide by a tos agreement and then ignore it what else will you do that may be dishonest.

 

[HappyDaddy]

One thing more pathetic than a thief is a thief with a lame rationalization for his thievery. The reason this concept seems difficult to grasp for some is that they are simply not fundamentally honest people. Circumventing paying for a service you have chosen to use is theft - full stop.

 

[hhmoore]

Joe,
I had to re-read his response when I first read it...I decided that he must have misinterpreted your statement (likely thinking that you meant sellers should ignore a buyer that wasn't willing to pay the extra).

 

[not2sharp]

So when there is actual, undeniable proof that they are dishonest, you don't buy it?

I would rather reserve judgement. I have never bought or sold anything using Paypal FF, nor do I plan to. But, I can see where Paypal's normal buyer's protection program can be used to defraud the seller, especially on international transactions where obtaining adequate proof of delivery can be difficult or impossible. We have see plenty of complaints on both sides of this issue. I do not see any reason to inject the Bladeforums into the transaction or to promulgate rules which favor one side or the other.

Let the buyer and seller work out their own deal. Let them choose the means of payment and express and negotiate the price however they please. In the end an asking price is just that; you are always free to make your offer under your own terms. It is better that we focus on promoting informed consumption and as always Caveat Emptor.

n2s

 

[adamlau]

So when there is actual, undeniable proof that they are dishonest, you don't buy it?

I do not buy the fact that people can be generalized as being dishonest and untrustworthy folks based solely on their violation of PayPal's TOS. It is painting too broad an ethics stroke.

I prefer to see an all inclusive price as the buyer can always PM an offer to the seller. In general, I am in line with shortsocks whereby unless the marketplace rules are modified to state otherwise, the seller has the prerogative to call out an F&F price.

Again, I am in the singular price camp.

Let the buyer and seller work out their own deal. Let them choose the means of payment and express and negotiate the price however they please

And agree with this statement with the caveat from the previous quote whereby unless the marketplace rules are modified to state otherwise, the seller has the prerogative to call out an F&F price.

 

[RayseM]

I do not see any reason to inject the Bladeforums into the transaction or to promulgate rules which favor one side or the other.
Let the buyer and seller work out their own deal. Let them choose the means of payment and express and negotiate the price however they please. In the end an asking price is just that; you are always free to make your offer under your own terms. It is better that we focus on promoting informed consumption and as always Caveat Emptor.

n2s

THIS ^ is well said and though I PREFER to buy and sell using PayPal Goods & Services I can't argue. not2sharp makes a sharp enough point

Ray

 

[stonesell]

Let the buyer and seller work out their own deal. Let them choose the means of payment and express and negotiate the price however they please. In the end an asking price is just that; you are always free to make your offer under your own terms. It is better that we focus on promoting informed consumption and as always Caveat Emptor.

n2s

I have to agree. I came up from a challenging beginning, and would never have never gotten out of the bad neighborhoods, if I had to worry about a bunch of rules. Through many years, what has worked for me, is honest one on one business, and this is especially true if you are involved in a clandestine transaction.

 

[palonej]

Agreed. Thank you my friend.

Joe,
I had to re-read his response when I first read it...I decided that he must have misinterpreted your statement (likely thinking that you meant sellers should ignore a buyer that wasn't willing to pay the extra).

 

[JohnWE]

You know.

That's a great question.
I don't see it as cheating paypal necessarily.
PayPal goods/services provides a service, and I value that service most of the time. Most of the time.

I feel that when a member, who on this forum, like myself share a love and interest in a certain subject like, the love of steel, that I consider that person a "Friend". We share common space, communicate and share with each other. Now, call me Naive, but until that person proves me wrong, I will consider that person a fellow whom I share with.

But, I feel that PayPal provides a service, and that service I'll pay for if I want the protections that it provides. That's what that 3% provides. Which is what I'm 100% cool with.

I look at it as a trust.
A trust that is mutually gained and earned, through feedback and a love of steel. So I'm Naive. But PayPal gives me the option to Not use G/S, and I don't feel like I'm cheating anyone. PayPal or a friend here on BF.

Wow...a trust? Like the trust extended by PayPal when you WILLINGLY signed up to use their services?

You may not feel like you're cheating anyone but you most assuredly are.

Rationalising theft is just that. You may or may not be naive but you're definitely a thief.

 

[stonesell]

I still think that there are two laws. We have the civic law, which in unenforceable at times, and then everything reverts to the street law, where there is nobody to babysit you, and you are on your own to complete the deal with honor. I believe that the latter is more realistic.

 

[shortsocks]

Wow...a trust? Like the trust extended by PayPal when you WILLINGLY signed up to use their services?

You may not feel like you're cheating anyone but you most assuredly are.

Rationalising theft is just that. You may or may not be naive but you're definitely a thief.

You know what really sucks about this thread? I obviously know it's a one sided thread, which is fine, and I joined this thread to communicate a view. But I've tried to communicate civilly, and friendly with my fellow steel addicts and I'm getting really nasty comments hurdled at me. Got to say, it kinda hurts.

Come on guy/gals, I know this is such a serious thing for you folks. But we are aficionados of pocket knives. Lovers of steel. And I just went into this thread with a diff view, acted like a partner in a hobby that share with everyone here.

I mean come on folks! Are we losing sight of that? Why we acting like this, quick to judge and insult.

I'm not going to attack my fellow man, especially here. There really is no need to sling insults. We are a community.

If we change the rules by all means, change the rules here at blade forum. I'll follow the rules. But please, and I mean that, please let's respect each other.


Socks.

 

[hhmoore]

I've got to say that is some pretty lame BS, stonesell.
It basically comes off as some twisted slant of integrity while shunning rules that exist, just because you don't like them.

 

[Armadew]

We are a community. We all share a common interest. And we look out for our own.

This includes warning others about dishonest sellers.

If you cheat PayPal, you are being dishonest.

If you're willing to lie and cheat, why should I trust you?

No, accepting F&F doesn't automatically mean you're a bad person.

It doesn't even mean we can't be friends!

But I wouldn't ever loan you money. Or deal with you in the Exchange.

 

[stonesell]

I've got to say that is some pretty lame BS, stonesell.
It basically comes off as some twisted slant of integrity while shunning rules that exist, just because you don't like them.

Sorry for being contrary, but there are many ways to look at a subject. I'm not intent on trying to create a scandal, but just trying to share some observations that I know are controversial. In truth, the written laws do not work for everyone, and many of us have to improvise. While it's clear that I'm not a saint, I've never had a deal go wrong in 38 years of various businesses. I do like and respect your input, and appreciate your comments, and I also believe in PayPal G&S, as the best go to option.

 

[brooksknives]

I'm hoping your comment was not directed at me.
I'm in the NO F&F or net to me camp

By the way your other post is worded it seems that you are saying that a buyer should be ignored if they are not willing to pay your fees if i read into that wrong then i will apologize.

But if i did not read into it wrong then i stand by my words

 

[JohnWE]

...

 

[JohnWE]

As someone once said, when a person shows you what they are, believe them.

 

[palonej]

I didn't word my post correctly.
I was alluding to the seller wanting the buyer to pay his fees is a no no for me.
Went on to say it's ~ $3 on $100. Amazes me that sellers are looking for a buyer to additionally pay such a trivial amount.
I only check a sales thread where the seller states one total price. And he accepts G&S.
I will not pay anyone's fees. I will not pay F&F.
Hope that clears that up!!!
Joe

By the way your other post is worded it seem that you are saying that a buyer should be ignored if they are not willing to pay your fees if i read into that wrong then i will apologize.

But if i did not read into it wrong then i stand buy my words

 

[JohnWE]

You know what really sucks about this thread? I obviously know it's a one sided thread, which is fine, and I joined this thread to communicate a view. But I've tried to communicate civilly, and friendly with my fellow steel addicts and I'm getting really nasty comments hurdled at me. Got to say, it kinda hurts.

Come on guy/gals, I know this is such a serious thing for you folks. But we are aficionados of pocket knives. Lovers of steel. And I just went into this thread with a diff view, acted like a partner in a hobby that share with everyone here.

I mean come on folks! Are we losing sight of that? Why we acting like this, quick to judge and insult.

I'm not going to attack my fellow man, especially here. There really is no need to sling insults. We are a community.

If we change the rules by all means, change the rules here at blade forum. I'll follow the rules. But please, and I mean that, please let's respect each other.


Socks.

It's a shame that you see people that are advocating being honest as simply one side of an argument.

 

[stonesell]

If two people can work out a deal, that results in mutual respect and satisfaction, what's the wrongdoing? None of the people using paypal are hard core criminals, while I always push for paypal G&S, we are not the internet police for everyone, I would say that you self righteous guys need to calm down a bit.