• The rules for The Exchange can be found here. Please read and follow them. Stop using Paypal Friends & Family and follow our best practices to prevent getting ripped off or having a bad deal.

How To Put an End to the F&F and +% in the exchange.

Status
Not open for further replies.
If two people can work out a deal, that results in mutual respect and satisfaction, what's the wrongdoing? None of the people using paypal are hard core criminals, while I always push for paypal G&S, we are not the internet police for everyone, I would say that you self righteous guys need to calm down a bit.

You claim that people who steal services from or that cheat PayPal out of their fees aren't hard core criminals and you're probably right. Actually you stated "none of the people using PayPal" but I think my version is what you really meant.

As I stated, you're probably right but here's the thing. While we can suppose all we like about those we deal with online all we know for certain is what they do when we have dealings with them or we see the dealings they have with others.

We have no way of knowing what they're capable of or what they're willing to do other than what they do in their transactions here. The people/sellers here who willfully cheat PayPal are, on the other hand showing us exactly what they're willing and capable of doing. So my question is this; given the overwhelming number of sellers who obey the rules, both written and unwritten, why in the world would I want to do business with someone who has already shown themselves to be willfully dishonest at best?

When someone tells me they're willing to steal from someone, I believe them.
 
You claim that people who steal services from or that cheat PayPal out of their fees aren't hard core criminals and you're probably right. Actually you stated "none of the people using PayPal" but I think my version is what you really meant.

As I stated, you're probably right but here's the thing. While we can suppose all we like about those we deal with online all we know for certain is what they do when we have dealings with them or we see the dealings they have with others.

We have no way of knowing what they're capable of or what they're willing to do other than what they do in their transactions here. The people/sellers here who willfully cheat PayPal are, on the other hand showing us exactly what they're willing and capable of doing. So my question is this; given the overwhelming number of sellers who obey the rules, both written and unwritten, why in the world would I want to do business with someone who has already shown themselves to be willfully dishonest at best?

When someone tells me they're willing to steal from someone, I believe them.

You say that you have no idea what they are capable of, and that they might do wrong, but it doesn't tell you how great they can be to deal with, if their is a mutual understanding, and a great relationship. People are not zombie paypal violators, it's just one on one, you and me. I've never met a person that I couldn't do a mutually beneficial business with.
 
You say that you have no idea what they are capable of, and that they might do wrong, but it doesn't tell you how great they can be to deal with, if their is a mutual understanding, and a great relationship. People are not zombie paypal violators, it's just one on one, you and me. I've never met a person that I couldn't do a mutually beneficial business with.

Obviously you are willing to overlook more than I am.

I do appreciate it when the people willing to cheat self-identify as some always do in these threads.

Makes it easier to know who to trust.
 
You say that you have no idea what they are capable of, and that they might do wrong, but it doesn't tell you how great they can be to deal with, if their is a mutual understanding, and a great relationship. People are not zombie paypal violators, it's just one on one, you and me. I've never met a person that I couldn't do a mutually beneficial business with.

You are correct about one thing, only knowing that people are willing to steal and cheat PayPal doesn't tell me how great they might be but it does tell me enough.
 
You are correct about one thing, only knowing that people are willing to steal and cheat PayPal doesn't tell me how great they might be but it does tell me enough.
It's prudent to be careful, but I've learned not to cut people off too quickly, based on social observations. Often times the person that you believe to be the devil, turns out to be the savior.
 
What I fail to understand is why BF is taking a "its not our fight" stance on this. There are a lot of issues that really aren't for them to fight but they take a side and it benefits the community. I don't see why this should be any different. Especially since it has been the main cause of issue in most deals gone sour. If it changes and they ban F&F ill buy a gold membership for the first time since joining. Not that its going to make a difference to them. Its only $30. But if you are asking people for money in exchange for the privilege of being able to sell on the site, I kinda just feel that every precaution to protect those members should be taken. We have no swearing rules. We have rules against insults. We have rules against selling imported balis and switchblades. But the one thing that causes the most harm to the community is just left to chance. I will never understand that. Would you lose a few memberships? Maybe. But probably the ones worth getting rid of. And you might gain more. I got my $30 waiting.
 
At some point having mods reply to all of the F&F threads in GB&U should become an issue. I am against enacting more regulations but this has gotten out of hand. Banning F&F deals will take a lot of time up front but I am thinking it would save time in the long run. I have never paid F&F but enacting a sticky would seem to save time over responding to every thread regarding the practice.

I realize it is not BF's place to regulate PayPal policies but it seems that their rules could be enacted within this forum.

I guess Purple got in front of me but I agree, there are rules here so why not expand them to cover this issue?
 
I still see a lot of sellers giving one price, and a "net to me". In some of these cases it may be impossible for a buyer to say, "I'll take it", without first getting into contact with the seller. They two parties would need to discuss: method of payment, and if paypal is an option, and who pays the fees. Then there would be, method of shipping, shipping and handling fees, an option to buy insurance, choice of packing materials, and a fuel surcharge, to get to and from the post office. All this would need to calculated, if the knife is costly.
If the knife is a super great deal, then the buyer can still post an "I'll take it", knowing that there may be another 10 or 15 percent, in fees and shipping, or risk losing the option to buy.
 
Last edited:
The fee that Paypal charges is simply just a way for them to be reimbursed for credit card processing fees. Isn't that funny, PayPal passes their fees on to their customer. If the fee were really about buying you some kind of protection, then they would charge a flat fee or possibly a tiered fee. Instead, it is a percentage of the selling price. So someone that paid a fee of $3 on a $100 transaction gets the same amount of protection that someone gets for spending $45 on a $1500 transaction. Does that strike any of you self-righteous geniuses as a bit strange? Does paypal really have to spend that much more time protecting the buyer that spent $1500, or would they spend the same amount of time on the guy that spent $100? They charged the seller that got $1500 15 time more money in fees, so therefore they must put in 15 times more work to protect him, right? Of course not! They didn't even charge the guy that spent the money. They charged the seller. The seller is the one getting the shaft; he has to pay all the fees and the buyers gets as much, if not more, protection than he does. They are simply making the sellers pay for processing the payment. That's why if you use a bank account, and only a bank account, to send money to your friends and family, they don't charge a fee. If you use a credit card to send money to friends and family, they charge the sender the same 2.9% +$0.30 that they charge the seller on a Goods payment. So then it begs the question, if I use my bank account to pay for Goods and Services, since Paypal doesn't have to process a credit card, are they going to give me some kind of "Super" protection? No, they give the same protection as someone that paid with a credit card, and they keep 100% of the fee. Most American's don't use their bank account to pay for things, though. They use their credit card and PayPal knows this and so therefore they charge the fee.
Also, how many of you leave money in your paypal account? You do realize what PayPal does with that money that you have in there, right?
How about we let the two adults involved decide how they want to complete a transaction. I'm sick and tired of a small group of pussies trying to force rules on the majority. If someone uses F&F to pay for something and they get screwed, then it should be a lesson learned. They took a risk and they lost. That's not the fault of bladeforums or anyone else but themselves. We don't need a rule telling us how to spend our money. Using F&F isn't against the law, so for those of you who don't like it, go complain about something else. I see that one of you has already tried your little trick of pm'ing the seller and offering to buy without paying the fees. It didn't work and someone else got the knife you wanted.
Hahaha, yeah, those guys asking for F&F or net are really the guys that screw everyone else. Riiiigggghhhhttt
 
Last edited:
The fee that Paypal charges is simply just a way for them to be reimbursed for credit card processing fees. Isn't that funny, PayPal passes their fees on to their customer. If the fee were really about buying you some kind of protection, then they would charge a flat fee or possibly a tiered fee. Instead, it is a percentage of the selling price. So someone that paid a fee of $3 on a $100 transaction gets the same amount of protection that someone gets for spending $45 on a $1500 transaction. Does that strike any of you self-righteous geniuses as a bit strange? Does paypal really have to spend that much more time protecting the buyer that spent $1500, or would they spend the same amount of time on the guy that spent $100? They charged the seller that got $1500 15 time more money in fees, so therefore they must put in 15 times more work to protect him, right? Of course not! They didn't even charge the guy that spent the money. They charged the seller. The seller is the one getting the shaft; he has to pay all the fees and the buyers gets as much, if not more, protection than he does. They are simply making the sellers pay for processing the payment. That's why if you use a bank account, and only a bank account, to send money to your friends and family, they don't charge a fee. If you use a credit card to send money to friends and family, they charge the sender the same 2.9% +$0.30 that they charge the seller on a Goods payment. So then it begs the question, if I use my bank account to pay for Goods and Services, since Paypal doesn't have to process a credit card, are they going to give me some kind of "Super" protection? No, they give the same protection as someone that paid with a credit card, and they keep 100% of the fee. Most American's don't use their bank account to pay for things, though. They use their credit card and PayPal knows this and so therefore they charge the fee.
Also, how many of you leave money in your paypal account? You do realize what PayPal does with that money that you have in there, right?
How about we let the two adults involved decide how they want to complete a transaction. I'm sick and tired of a small group of pussies trying to force rules on the majority. If someone uses F&F to pay for something and they get screwed, then it should be a lesson learned. They took a risk and they lost. That's not the fault of bladeforums or anyone else but themselves. We don't need a rule telling us how to spend our money. Using F&F isn't against the law, so for those of you who don't like it, go complain about something else. I see that one of you has already tried your little trick of pm'ing the seller and offering to buy without paying the fees. It didn't work and someone else got the knife you wanted.
Hahaha, yeah, those guys asking for F&F or net are really the guys that screw everyone else. Riiiigggghhhhttt

None of that matters. Protection,no protection. Its irrelevant. When you make a pp account you agree to their terms and conditions. And that includes paying the fees. Regardless of how evil and wrong it is for them to do it. You can try to justify why its ok to rip off paypal and other members but honestly The majority is seeing why they shouldnt deal with you and not the other way around. And im sorry but you have been hear for two years. Not exactly a tenure to be wanting to call the shots and speak for the majority. You may not like rules but rules are exactly why this place functions and isnt simply an internet toilet. If you dont plan on screwing other members, and dont plan on screwing paypal then such a rule should be of absolutely no consequence to you. The only people that would logically be against a new rule that would protect the community would be those who could no longer benefit from its lack of existence.
 
None of that matters. Protection,no protection. Its irrelevant. When you make a pp account you agree to their terms and conditions. And that includes paying the fees. Regardless of how evil and wrong it is for them to do it. You can try to justify why its ok to rip off paypal and other members but honestly The majority is seeing why they shouldnt deal with you and not the other way around. And im sorry but you have been hear for two years. Not exactly a tenure to be wanting to call the shots and speak for the majority. You may not like rules but rules are exactly why this place functions and isnt simply an internet toilet. If you dont plan on screwing other members, and dont plan on screwing paypal then such a rule should be of absolutely no consequence to you. The only people that would logically be against a new rule that would protect the community would be those who could no longer benefit from its lack of existence.
Two feedback in ten years, impressive. Yet you want to talk down to me about how things operate around here. Not only do I have quite a lot of positive feedback here, but I have an excellent reputation as a buyer and seller on social media and other forums. The majority absolutely feel the same way I do, that's why you see the majority of the sales asking for net or gift and that's why you see these ignorant threads about paypal pop up once a week and then a dozen guys get together and pat each other on the butt and tell each other what a great group of guys they are because they will only use paypal goods. It's absolutely no wonder that Facebook has been taking over and all traditional forums are in a downward spiral. The people who actually are active in the knife collecting hobby like to buy and sell and try new things and improve their collection. They get a bit weathered when the guy that never buys or sells anything talks attempts (but fails) to talk down them. The only thing the guy that never buys or sells anything is good at is flapping his jaws and being self-righteous, when in reality I would bet he has skeletons in his closet that he wouldn't want anyone seeing. The people who are against new rules are the same people who elected our current President and they are tired of the minority trying to act like the majority and force their ignorant rules on them. It's quite easy for someone with two feedback in ten years to sit around and flap their gums about the evils of "net" or F&F, but it's simply because they never have to think about it because they never buy or sell anything. Go ahead and keep beating your self-righteous drum and keep driving the active members away. Then when the exchange looks like a ghost-town you can all flap your gums and talk about how you finally got the people using the exchange to only use goods and services.
 
Last edited:
Two feedback in ten years, impressive. Yet you want to talk down to me about how things operate around here. Not only do I have quite a lot of positive feedback here, but I have an excellent reputation as a buyer and seller on social media and other forums. The majority absolutely feel the same way I do, that's why you see the majority of the sales asking for net or gift and that's why you see these ignorant threads about paypal pop up once a week and then a dozen guys get together and pat each other on the butt and tell each other what a great group of guys they are because they will only use paypal goods. It's absolutely no wonder that Facebook has been taking over and all traditional forums are in a downward spiral. The people who actually are active in the knife collecting hobby like to buy and sell and try new things and improve their collection. They get a bit weathered when the guy that never buys or sells anything talks attempts (but fails) to talk down them. The only thing the guy that never buys or sells anything is good at is flapping his jaws and being self-righteous, when in reality I would bet he has skeletons in his closet that he wouldn't want anyone seeing. The people who are against new rules are the same people who elected our current President and they are tired of the minority trying to act like the majority and force their ignorant rules on them. It's quite easy for someone with two feedback in ten years to sit around and flap their gums about the evils of "net" or F&F, but it's simply because they never have to think about it because they never buy or sell anything.
Brilliant.
 
Two feedback in ten years, impressive. Yet you want to talk down to me about how things operate around here. Not only do I have quite a lot of positive feedback here, but I have an excellent reputation as a buyer and seller on social media and other forums. The majority absolutely feel the same way I do, that's why you see the majority of the sales asking for net or gift and that's why you see these ignorant threads about paypal pop up once a week and then a dozen guys get together and pat each other on the butt and tell each other what a great group of guys they are because they will only use paypal goods. It's absolutely no wonder that Facebook has been taking over and all traditional forums are in a downward spiral. The people who actually are active in the knife collecting hobby like to buy and sell and try new things and improve their collection. They get a bit weathered when the guy that never buys or sells anything talks attempts (but fails) to talk down them. The only thing the guy that never buys or sells anything is good at is flapping his jaws and being self-righteous, when in reality I would bet he has skeletons in his closet that he wouldn't want anyone seeing. The people who are against new rules are the same people who elected our current President and they are tired of the minority trying to act like the majority and force their ignorant rules on them. It's quite easy for someone with two feedback in ten years to sit around and flap their gums about the evils of "net" or F&F, but it's simply because they never have to think about it because they never buy or sell anything. Go ahead and keep beating your self-righteous drum and keep driving the active members away. Then when the exchange looks like a ghost-town you can all flap your gums and talk about how you finally got the people using the exchange to only use goods and services.

Yes. Two feedbacks in ten year. Guess what? I don't sell here. In fact I think one of those feedbacks was left on accident. Maybe both. But that doesn't mean I haven't bought things. I have bought plenty. But just like there are no rules about F&F there are no rules that feedback needs to be left. So even if I should have got feedback on something I bought I don't go chasing people down if they don't leave it. But by all means keep telling me what you think you know based on the flawed feedback system. What the hell are you even talking about skeletons in the closet? If you are speaking about me lets hear what you think you know. I can guarantee you most people all ready know about it and your google fu and detective work fail you. But come on lets see what you think you found. And please keep your political crap where it belongs. Either way, if you will defraud paypal you could defraud me. And I find it comical that you think using a forum solely to buy sell and trade as a good thing. I use the forum for its orginal intended purpose. Discussion. Its not "Bladeforums, the leading edge of knife commerce"
 
Last edited:
Thank you! These guys that never buy or sell are as bad as the guys who are always pricing their stuff too high and have to put their wares for sale in their sig lines.
I've got more feedback so does that mean my opinion matters more than yours?

I'll just run with that premise... Anyone who uses paypal gift for a buying or selling transaction is a dirty fracking thief. There. I have spoken. We can put this issue to rest. Finally.
 
Warning for insulting post
I've got more feedback so does that mean my opinion matters more than yours?

I'll just run with that premise. Anyone who uses paypal gift for a buying or selling transaction is a dirty fracking thief. There. I have spoken. We can put this issue to rest. Finally.
Except they aren't. The vast majority of the time, as in it is very rare for them not to, they ship the product they were paid for.
I knew ahead of time that explaining this to those lacking the intellectual capability to understand it would be an exercise in futility, but I thought it would be fun to watch the dozen or so of you buzz around like bees. Now get back to your griping and claims of theivery and the rest of us will continue to live a nice life. Enjoy your misery.

Oh, and PURPLEDC, if you expect anyone to believe that the lack of a rule about paypal gift is what has kept you from prying open your wallet for the last ten years, I have a bridge to sell you. Except you wont buy it because you're too cheap to buy anything.
 
Except they aren't. The vast majority of the time, as in it is very rare for them not to, they ship the product they were paid for.
I knew ahead of time that explaining this to those lacking the intellectual capability to understand it would be an exercise in futility, but I thought it would be fun to watch the dozen or so of you buzz around like bees. Now get back to your griping and claims of theivery and the rest of us will continue to live a nice life. Enjoy your misery.

Oh, and PURPLEDC, if you expect anyone to believe that the lack of a rule about paypal gift is what has kept you from prying open your wallet for the last ten years, I have a bridge to sell you. Except you wont buy it because you're too cheap to buy anything.


Never said that. Never implied that. Im a cheap SOB who doesn't like paying to sell things when I have other outlets that I can sell without needing to buy a membership. What I said was that if the rules change and F&F is banned that I would buy a gold membership. I probably STILL wouldn't sell anything here. It was a way of saying that if the rules change I would buy the membership on principal even if I didn't use it. You call me cheap as if NOT spending money you don't have to is a bad thing. Talk about self righteous.

Whats even more comical still is you calling me cheap for not wanting to pay $30 just to be able to sell here when YOU are the one who rips off Paypal for 3.5%. We are both cheap. But you are a fraud. I'm fine with just being cheap. And yes even if the buyer gets the knife you sold them if you made them pay F&F then you are a thief. You just ripped off paypal and not the customer. But you also defrauded the customer of the right to call BS if you sell something that isn't as described. So the customer still gets screwed.
 
I think that we have covered ever aspect of this controversial subject, in this thread. I have never asked for F&F, because I like the paypal arbitration process, if something goes wrong, and it's really a small price to pay, for using G&S. If a forum rule is put in place to do away with F&F, then we could all rest easier, and honor the new system. Since it is still allowed, and not illegal, it may not be prudent to condemn those that still use it. It's still great that we can analyze this subject from every different angle, and still respect each other's opinions.
 
Last edited:
warning for insults.
Except they aren't. The vast majority of the time, as in it is very rare for them not to, they ship the product they were paid for.
I knew ahead of time that explaining this to those lacking the intellectual capability to understand it would be an exercise in futility, but I thought it would be fun to watch the dozen or so of you buzz around like bees. Now get back to your griping and claims of theivery and the rest of us will continue to live a nice life. Enjoy your misery.

Oh, and PURPLEDC, if you expect anyone to believe that the lack of a rule about paypal gift is what has kept you from prying open your wallet for the last ten years, I have a bridge to sell you. Except you wont buy it because you're too cheap to buy anything.

^admitted thief.
 
Never said that. Never implied that. Im a cheap SOB who doesn't like paying to sell things when I have other outlets that I can sell without needing to buy a membership. What I said was that if the rules change and F&F is banned that I would buy a gold membership. I probably STILL wouldn't sell anything here. It was a way of saying that if the rules change I would buy the membership on principal even if I didn't use it. You call me cheap as if NOT spending money you don't have to is a bad thing. Talk about self righteous.

Whats even more comical still is you calling me cheap for not wanting to pay $30 just to be able to sell here when YOU are the one who rips off Paypal for 3.5%. We are both cheap. But you are a fraud. I'm fine with just being cheap. And yes even if the buyer gets the knife you sold them if you made them pay F&F then you are a thief. You just ripped off paypal and not the customer. But you also defrauded the customer of the right to call BS if you sell something that isn't as described. So the customer still gets screwed.
Except that I have NEVER sold something not as described and I've never used money I didnt have to buy. I've paid a ton of fees the last few years and paypal hasn't had to deal with any unhappy buyers of mine, so they've got all that money and havent had to exercise any of it on a deal I've done. So now they're earning interest on that money, but yet I'm the thief. Give me a break. You dozen or so guys enjoy your little party. You'll never stop a seller or a company from passing along fees and taxes to the customer. If pp fees aren't allowed to be charged, then all of a sudden you'll see lower prices on the knives but shipping will be an extra $xx. I'm sure you'd all be fine with that though, since it wouldn't appear that your precious paypal wasn't getting their fee.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top