Raw wood to handle

Kevin - Who goes through the refrigerator? Translations and cultural competency don't always go hand in hand lol.

The something else involved wouldn't be the shaping below the head would it - to use one handed?

I think the wood will look good when it's finished and oiled. There is lots of extra material but it clears the hand well.

Eh? Does it look "unfinished"? Of course every one I do looks familiar...

Cherry Flavored Kemi by Agent Hierarchy, on Flickr
 
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May I ask, is Osage orange a suitable handle material? If its allowed to dry, and if the grain is starlight? It's incredibly tough, and the pcs we have wrestled with that are old, here on the farm, are very resistant to breaking.
 
Brian, I would think so - There are some really nice looking works in osage orange by members here but I have never even seen it in person.

I've heard that it's hard to find straight pieces but when you do it's quite a stunning wood. One of these gentlemen could probably tell you max handle length, strength, flavor, recipes, etc.

Would enjoy seeing what you come up with for sure!
 
Brian, I would think so - There are some really nice looking works in osage orange by members here but I have never even seen it in person.

I've heard that it's hard to find straight pieces but when you do it's quite a stunning wood. One of these gentlemen could probably tell you max handle length, strength, flavor, recipes, etc.

Would enjoy seeing what you come up with for sure!
We have a lot of it on our farms. I harvest it in winter and put pieces in the barn to age. I take some of the Bark off, but not all. Then once it ages a year or 2, finish stripping it.

If I get smaller branches, about the thickness of my bicep, the grain is usually straight and knot free.

I will look for pcs this winter with handles in mind.
 
No max, just go for it. Should work fine either way. Would really like to work with that stuff sometime. Compared to hickory the technical details says its les bendy, so more shock in your forearms.

I will try to remember that. I can send you some. I make knife handle scales with it, and some furniture.
 
BTW, I think I'm gonna start referring to "good" grain as "starlight". :p

So has my 24 hours past? I dunno. Mature and COTS .... doesn't go together. Just ask the other members here.

So because you don't know about my history with "grain orientation" conversations, you should know I have vowed not to speak of it anymore. In this case, in my defense, I didn't know that I was getting into a grain orientation conversation. So when you ask; what would the result of runout be in this, that, or the other situation - here's the thing. I have to spend the exact same amount of time carving my handle from a garbage piece of wood as I do a perfect piece of wood. I understand WELL that the definition of "perfect" varies among its users and presumably among various species of tree. I think perhaps that answers the Basque question - make do with what you have (which by the way, is a motto I'm a big supporter of). The point is this; if the time is the same, I'm going for MY personal definition of perfect. Good will suffice however. The Locust I have is less than perfect but I do believe it is sufficient and so I use it. But, making do simply won't do, not because it's unworthy, but because it's not the goal. I don't make handles because I need 47 axes, so it's not a matter of doing what it takes to get the job done. I make handles because I set out with a goal of achieving MY vision of ideal and nothing less is worth pursuing. Why would I put maximum effort into pursuing an outcome that doesn't interest me? It just isn't about the rules, it's about the goal.



Don't get me wrong: Same here, but with a Jersey! And that being said: Being a car guy doesn't help as wel. Probably the same with you as well. But you have to keep in mind that wood is a naturally occuring thing, where metal can be bent and shaped any way you like it.

I have a racing background, so looking at wood for me is like looking at the rulebook: I want to do something, but i know i cant because of said rules. I can bend the rules, but not by much, but it results in a solution for a problem that the rulebook dictates.

With wood its the same: Rules like grain apply. Breaking that rule results in broken handles. Bending the rules results in creative solutions. Just to give you something to think about and point you in the right direction:

- What would be the result of runout on the top of the handle? And what would be the result on the lower part of the handle. Think in shock absorbtion and where the weight is located.
- Why do the Spanish/Basque angle their grain differently?

Think long and hard about it for at least 24 hours and then give an answer. Let it mature in your head.

Oh, and just to drive home the maturity part, the Basque orient their grain that way BECAUSE THEY'RE WROOOOOOONNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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BTW, I think I'm gonna start referring to "good" grain as "starlight". :p

So has my 24 hours past? I dunno. Mature and COTS .... doesn't go together. Just ask the other members here.

So because you don't know about my history with "grain orientation" conversations, you should know I have vowed not to speak of it anymore. In this case, in my defense, I didn't know that I was getting into a grain orientation conversation. So when you ask; what would the result of runout be in this, that, or the other situation - here's the thing. I have to spend the exact same amount of time carving my handle from a garbage piece of wood as I do a perfect piece of wood. I understand WELL that the definition of "perfect" varies among its users and presumably among various species of tree. I think perhaps that answers the Basque question - make do with what you have (which by the way, is a motto I'm a big supporter of). The point is this; if the time is the same, I'm going for MY personal definition of perfect. Good will suffice however. The Locust I have is less than perfect but I do believe it is sufficient and so I use it. But, making do simply won't do, not because it's unworthy, but because it's not the goal. I don't make handles because I need 47 axes, so it's not a matter of doing what it takes to get the job done. I make handles because I set out with a goal of achieving MY vision of ideal and nothing less is worth pursuing. Why would I put maximum effort into pursuing an outcome that doesn't interest me? It just isn't about the rules, it's about the goal.





Oh, and just to drive home the maturity part, the Basque orient their grain that way BECAUSE THEY'RE WROOOOOOONNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!
Strong opinions.
I think they do it it because wood bends easier in that direction. Probably not an issue with hickory. I have also noticed that some of their handles have the swell laminated on because of this grain direction causing a weakness there.
 
Right, first of the disclaimer: These are only my thought,s aren't set in stone.

"U gaat door voor de koelkast": I Rolled on the floor laughing when i read what google translate came up with: It litterally means: Your to the next round for the fridge! It was an old gameshow where you could win household items, turned into a saying. If somebody says it, you have the correct answer. ;)

Having a longer poll and grabbing it there: @Square_peg had a part of the answer. If you grab the handle lower you can use more force at the cost of precision. But there is another effect you need to take into account. I know that works because of other sharp objects: Curved swords. Like Katana's but more so like Shamshirs. A katana is a one and a half hand sword, which you can use one handed. A Shamsir is a one handed sword. Point is. Wen you use it one handed and into a curve (hammer, sword, axe) your wrist comes into play. So it kind of works as a whip. The experiment it did was with the Spanish axe handle:
35346009633_3d6d294c03_h.jpg

Its a slipfit yew handle on purpose: yew is about the bendiest it gets whitout braking. Slipfit because it is originally used. But the shape of handle isn't in the slightest. The curve in the lower part is actually to make it easier to roll your wrist an take advantage of the whipping effect. Thats why accuracy tends to lose out. A handle of say 4" longer would alter accuracy to much, but would alter the force. Test results: It works. It isn't the prettiest shape i've ever seen though.

Now for the harder part about the grain: First of this isn't set in stone, as said above. But I believe I know why the Basque use the grain perpendicular. First of look at the material: Beech. Beech isn't that complicated in grain, so it isn't because the grain wood in itself:
240_028%20BEUKEN%20EUROPEES.jpg

It is very high in moisture though, so it tends to warp when drying out. Nothing that can be fixed. Grain is fairly straight but can be wavy. Wavyness, as far as I understand it, comes from warmer climates (a.k.a. Basque country, since thats Spain and France). The picture above is from Beech from Holland, where it is a lot colder. I actually had a eureka moment a while back when somebody posted something about wood in warmer climates having wider growth rings and being stronger, which I tought was the opposite of common belief, but at the same time intriguing. After pondering about it, mailing back an forth with some experts on wood and woodworking I came to a conclusion:

In general: Wood is stronger with a lot of straight grain. Colder climates tend to have that. It's just denser wood. Although I must say its less bendy because of a lot of grain. Having less grain makes it a bit less dense, but a lot bendier. Therefore less likely to break.

If you take that into consideration. Trees are more wavy the warmer the climate gets ( Kansas / Oregon, or Holland/Spain). So you end up into runout teritory. Since we only use a axe front to back, not left to right, we can assume the runout is only a issue when at the front or the back of the handle. Not on the sides. And what happens when you turn the grain a quarter clockwise? Exactly that. So you can counter runout by turning the grain.

This does impose one questions though: Does it make the wood weaker? The answer is: Yes a little bit, but still less likely to break compared to a handle with runout.

Thats why I wanted C cityofthesouth to think about it. I know what being a perfectionist is like, but I also know that you have to make do with what you have, think outside of the box, and make compromises. What the Basque actually did was learn to work with what they have (in a sence compromised wood) and make it usable. Its not the best, but it's whats locally available. Dont forget that the basque community was oppressed for a long time, wanting there own country but still not having it. They just had to make do. Today its just traditionally done that way since the climate's only gotten warmer and beech was the material used in the past and is still locally available.

Not entirely different to the dutch, allthough with us it was water....
So you are saying a lighter less dense piece of wood will bend and not break over a more dense one. That is opposite to my experience. And no doubt the whole self bow making community's.

This seems to contradict your claim that wavy grain comes from warm climates.http://www.popularwoodworking.com/projects/aw-extra-12413-the-way-wood-works-curly-wood

And the part about stronger wood coming from warmer climates. Here is the thing. Wider growth rings will generally be stronger in ring porous hard woods which may have some connection to a warmer climate. But what is more important is the late wood to early wood ratio. When the wood is lade down during the growing season influences that. As does the smaller diameter trees with the wider growth rings and is why second growth hickory has been a selling point for a hundred years or so.

In the coniferous trees like yew the slower growing trees with the tighter growth rings are the densest and the strongest. They come from the stress full growing conditions associated with high elevations.
 
Hopefully it's clear that I'm not especially serious about any of this, or my own opinions for that matter. More on topic, I really am anxious to get a piece of Red Elm and I hear the woods calling so hopefully I'll have something to show for all the silliness soon.
 
Self bow is a different ballgame all together. That has tension from the start. But that being said: Something thats to hard will shatter on impact. Apple wood for instance. But also hardend hammers or axes that haven't been relieved. There always needs to be a balance: Yew is the best wood for bows ever, not because its the strongest (try ebony), but because it has just the right characteristics to do so.

The link does not say they know, only that they hypothesize it, just like I do, but they cant replicate it. Mine is an assumption as well.

The one thing I don't understand though, is the higher elevation yew? Strongest yew came from Engeland and France. And most places it grew where actually low elevation in stead of high elevation, so I cant quite follow that?
There has been much written about the English longbow, but I think you would be hard pressed to find anything about the quality of English yew. Certainly what little is available today in no way compares to what is imported from the Cascades to satisfy the english bowyers that are importing it. If I was going to look for something concrete on the subject Roger Ascham would be the first place I would look. He is the earliest reference we have and is probably to late.

While it is true that the french where forced to pay a tariff on wine imports in the form of bow staves it does not mean that all the staves came from france or that france was the only source of staves for the english. The best source we have for just what the English war bow was has came from the pile of bows from the Mary Rose. They have been studied to death and all the information is out there including growth ring count.

To answer your question on elevation it is all relative. The Cascade mountains supply todays demand. High elevation yew might be considered what grows 2000' up the mountain versus what is found at 500' on the valley floor.
 
The English where getting there yew from everywhere: First Germany and Austria , then the countries below and to the east, where it still grows. Mine comes from Holland though, as I can somethimes get my hands on it. The English actually planted yew in every church or monastraty garden as a last effort for attacking invaders. It still grows there, but is highly protected. I'll see if I can find a better source, since the source I have is one from the 14th century, in a protected library where you would use gloves to touch the book, and cant be photographed. It's in a Cathedral in Utrecht and somewhat written in Dutch (Read: Not the modern variant and even for me it's difficult to read). Other then that its highly unlikely I get the chance to go true that book again.

A for the cascade Mountains: On your side of the pond probably? Thats Taxus Brevifolia? Over here its Taxus Baccata (stronger and better type of yew) supplied by a couple of countries: Switserland, Austria, France and Italy for the most part. But most of it is used to produce Taxol nowadays (cancer supressor).

If what you are saying is true then Taxus Wallichiana would be the ultimate species: Grows in the Himalaya region. But thats way to endangered now anyways.
You try to go against what is excepted as common knowledge from those that actually work with yew. And now you are trying to perpetuate a myth. No body would ever plant a yew tree in such an open setting and ever hope to harvest staves from it. Even in ideal conditions maybe one tree in fifty will even make a bow. And many of those old church yard yews predate the church that shares its ground.
Do some research and go cut some trees and work with the wood.
 
I was always told church & graveyard yews were to do with superstition (nothing to do with bow making), I've read it may even pre-date christianity in Britain.
 
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What you call myth, I call truth:

English_Yew_600.jpg

This is just one example on Wikipedia page of the taxus bacciata. Thats the real yew: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxus_baccata

Just how many times have you been to England? I've been there quite a lot. Ans since you know something about yew, you would also know how long it will take to grow, as its a very slow growing wood to begin with? They are in every courtyard you could find in England, Wales and Scotland, be it a church, a castle, dungeon, monastary, or whatever other walled garden you could find.

So as a response to you: First visit some other countries before you talk about them? That should work most of the time.

As for woodworking: Most of my axes hafts are my own work, as is the yew one, as are the tables they're photographed on, as well as other furniture and so on. As for cutting trees: Harvested some Fraxinus Excelsior a couple of days ago.

So really is that the best you can come up with????

One time could be a mistake on your part, and I forgive you for it.

Second time is a mistake on my part, for believing the first time was a mistake since you made a second one. So your off to ignore, because I don't have time for people like that. Just cant be bothered....
You presume a lot and it has nothing at all to do with anything.
That picture is a great example of a more modern planted yew. And what happens to them when planted in the open. Direct sun light causes yew to sprout branches on exposed wood. But I am sure you knew that.

I think you would really enjoy this book, "The Yew Tree:A Thousand Whispers" by Hal Hartzell. He does an excellent job of covering myths, legends, church yard yews and famous yews.
We have hijacked this thread long enough and I am sure I owe Agent H more than just an apology.
 
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