Some nice old axe handles

[quinton]

I have been told that House air dries their hickory...

I have 2 crooked single bit handles from HH that are unusable. When time permits I will experiment with them to see how they break compared to air-dried hickory.

The few HH's I've used and slimmed down didn't work, or feel like the hickory I cut myself.

 

[rjdankert]

. . . The more it runs diagonally, the easier chance it has to splinter across that line. If it runs straight through the bat from handle to barrel, the less chance it has of coming apart at all. . .

Just to add my two cents: Not a bat or handle, but I think these pieces of kindling illustrate straight vs not straight grain through a piece of wood . The axe follows the long grain fibers (path of least resistance) when these pieces are split out. Sure a bat or handle can be broken across the grain, but consider the effort between bucking (cutting across the grain) vs splitting.




Bob

 

[gben]

This is a very misleading claim and untrue as you have written it.

If you look at recommendation #3 in the article YOU linked to you will see that it backs up exactly what I said: "3. The orientation of the hitting surface on sugar maple and maple bats should be rotated 90 degrees (one-quarter turn of the bat). The edge grain in maple that is currently used as the hitting surface is the weaker of the two choices. To facilitate such a change in the hitting surface, manufacturers must rotate the logos they place on these bats by 90 degrees."

Maybe there is a remedial class in reading English at some local community college you can take????

The run-out of grain over the length of a handle or bat AND the orientation of the grain with or perpendicular to the direction of travel are two completely different subjects. Everyone knows that you want minimum or no run-out over the length of the handle or bat, but the grain orientation in relation to the direction of travel can work on edge or on face depending on the type of wood......

The study also says that bats usually break when struck about ten-inches from the end, and if you apply this to axes it means that usually the reason an axe breaks is that some noob has missed with his swing and has the handle hitting the target instead of the axe-head itself.

So all the controversy on this board about grain orientation is mostly hog-wash because if you take the type of wood the handle is made of into account it can mean the grain should be rotated ninety degrees from where it would be if the handle were of another type of wood, and it probably will not make any difference anyway because if the user is a noob and is going to strike the handle on his target a lot he is going to break the handle very quickly no matter how it is made or what type of wood it is....

The actual study that the article refers to is available as a pdf. download here and is much more complete and informative for those who take time to read it slowly and understand it: http://ac.els-cdn.com/S187770581201...t=1498568672_83780af876a2aa7f6a4c82d543bafde1

 

[Agent_H]

 

[Woodcraft]

If you look at recommendation #3 in the article YOU linked to you will see that it backs up exactly what I said: "3. The orientation of the hitting surface on sugar maple and maple bats should be rotated 90 degrees (one-quarter turn of the bat). The edge grain in maple that is currently used as the hitting surface is the weaker of the two choices. To facilitate such a change in the hitting surface, manufacturers must rotate the logos they place on these bats by 90 degrees."

Maybe there is a remedial class in reading English at some local community college you can take????

The actual study that the article refers to is available as a pdf. download here and is much more complete and informative for those who take time to read it slowly and understand it: http://ac.els-cdn.com/S187770581201...t=1498568672_83780af876a2aa7f6a4c82d543bafde1

First off you are pretty mouthy.
Secondly you said "works best". That is wrong, incorrect and misleading.
It simply changes the way the maple bat breaks. You hopefully get a one piece failure instead of a two piece failure. Ash delaminates if you hit that way. So you hit against the grain.

I have decades of experience with wood bats.(and using axes) I still play baseball. Two of my sons still play baseball.


Top to bottom
Ash
Maple
Locally made hand turned maple
Ash
Maple
Maple
Ash (dead bat)
Ash (pumpkin wood)


It's run out. Plain and simple. Run out and other imperfections.(including failure to recognize a bat that has become compromised in the last at bat)

 

[Square_peg]

What's the story behind that score?

 

[Agent_H]

They are Gben's

 

[garry3]

I have 2 crooked single bit handles from HH that are unusable. When time permits I will experiment with them to see how they break compared to air-dried hickory.

The few HH's I've used and slimmed down didn't work, or feel like the hickory I cut myself.

I also have a hafted axe with a house handle that I want to rehaft. So I will be breaking the haft. Just not sure yet how I want to do it. I am leaning towards an intentional over strike.

I do suspect that the information I received that it was air dried is correct as they have a tendency to warp in my dry climate. I just lay them straight again with heat and go on. And yes I know it weakens the wood. Lots of factors here that is just a crap shoot when a guy can't harvest his own. Like when the tree was cut in the first place.

I do have a moisture meter someplace and maybe I should find it. It has proven to be a completely unnecessary purchase fifteen or twenty years ago.

 

[Woodcraft]

Here is my latest "handle failure". Stress fractures in the wood. Grain and orientation were near enough perfect. Imperfections. Lucky to catch these before completing a hang

 

[Woodcraft]

https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/labnotes/?p=974

"FPL research engineer Kretschmann and a team of wood experts looked at every broken Major League bat from July to September during the 2008 season. They found that inconsistency of wood quality, primarily the manufacturing detail “slope of grain,” for all species of wood used in Major League bat manufacture was the main cause of broken bats."



"With the help of TECO, a third-party wood inspection service, the manufacturing changes the Kretschmann-led team established have proven remarkably successful over time. Limits to bat geometry dimensions, wood density restrictions, and wood drying recommendations have all contributed to the dramatic decrease in multiple-piece failures, even as maple’s popularity is on the upswing."

Look, I can read!

They are paying attention to both the end grain and the "face grain".

 

[rjdankert]

Here is my latest "handle failure". . .

From the picture it looks to me like it separated along the long grain fibers.

Don't remember where this came from:




Anyway that is how I understand it.

Slope > 0 = Runout


Bob

 

[Woodcraft]

After I discovered the first stress crack, I "followed it in" a bit seeing how much I would have to rasp and sand to get it out. See if it was do able. I looked and found more.


I ended up putting it over my knee and she "opened up"




It had several.

 

[garry3]

I have 2 crooked single bit handles from HH that are unusable. When time permits I will experiment with them to see how they break compared to air-dried hickory.

The few HH's I've used and slimmed down didn't work, or feel like the hickory I cut myself.

OK my friend. I decided with the help of some peer pressure and more than a couple beers that I would break the handle with an over strike across the anvil that is in my shop. It was not the best decision that I have made(see peer pressure and beer). I have never been accused of being a weakling or of being smart. I will just say that it was uncomfortable. On the third and final strike I caught my axe on the off side of my anvil and damaged the heel. Wrought iron anvil and an exceptionally hard Plumb.The handle is still well and good it just dented it. I have decided to thin the handle further to match the vintage ones and do more testing using a static load.
BTW, It is an older four pound DBL bit Plumb on a thirty inch haft.

 

[quinton]

OK my friend. I decided with the help of some peer pressure and more than a couple beers that I would break the handle with an over strike across the anvil that is in my shop. It was not the best decision that I have made(see peer pressure and beer). I have never been accused of being a weakling or of being smart. I will just say that it was uncomfortable. On the third and final strike I caught my axe on the off side of my anvil and damaged the heel. Wrought iron anvil and an exceptionally hard Plumb.The handle is still well and good it just dented it. I have decided to thin the handle further to match the vintage ones and do more testing using a static load.
BTW, It is an older four pound DBL bit Plumb on a thirty inch haft.

Never, EVER mix axes and alcohol..

 

[Woodcraft]

OK my friend. I decided with the help of some peer pressure and more than a couple beers that I would break the handle with an over strike across the anvil that is in my shop. It was not the best decision that I have made(see peer pressure and beer). I have never been accused of being a weakling or of being smart. I will just say that it was uncomfortable. On the third and final strike I caught my axe on the off side of my anvil and damaged the heel. Wrought iron anvil and an exceptionally hard Plumb.The handle is still well and good it just dented it. I have decided to thin the handle further to match the vintage ones and do more testing using a static load.
BTW, It is an older four pound DBL bit Plumb on a thirty inch haft.

First off, HOW DARE YOU ABUSE AN OLD PLUMB!!!!!

But seriously. You are going to have a rough time breaking a well made handle with proper grain orientation that way. I have hung axes for friends of mine who are accuracy and plan challenged who seem to overstrike just as often as they hit clean. The handles seem to just chunk and chip away untill they are so compromised they eventually crack. If you ran the non preferred way you may experience delamination on overstrikes. You may even cause internal cracking along porous layers due to striking and flexing causing an earlier failure than when run "proper". I have run an extremely thick hickory handle with "incorrect" grain on a friend's splitting ax. It held up. But is a singular example.
It's actually not that easy to break an ax handle. Or a bat for that matter. They test wood bats by putting the handles in roller holders and fling baseballs at the end of the barrels at about 165 mph. They fling them at the label at 125mph. They do not break untill 6 to 8 hits in often.

If I was going to do a test on breaking handles, dryness levels, Guinness fueled curiosity, whatever......
I would flip them over and strike directly on the backside of the belly of the handle. Perhaps just a little to the hands side of center of the belly.

 

[gben]

If you look at recommendation #3 in the article YOU linked to you will see that it backs up exactly what I said: "3. The orientation of the hitting surface on sugar maple and maple bats should be rotated 90 degrees (one-quarter turn of the bat). The edge grain in maple that is currently used as the hitting surface is the weaker of the two choices. To facilitate such a change in the hitting surface, manufacturers must rotate the logos they place on these bats by 90 degrees."

Maybe there is a remedial class in reading English at some local community college you can take????

The run-out of grain over the length of a handle or bat AND the orientation of the grain with or perpendicular to the direction of travel are two completely different subjects. Everyone knows that you want minimum or no run-out over the length of the handle or bat, but the grain orientation in relation to the direction of travel can work on edge or on face depending on the type of wood......

The study also says that bats usually break when struck about ten-inches from the end, and if you apply this to axes it means that usually the reason an axe breaks is that some noob has missed with his swing and has the handle hitting the target instead of the axe-head itself.

So all the controversy on this board about grain orientation is mostly hog-wash because if you take the type of wood the handle is made of into account it can mean the grain should be rotated ninety degrees from where it would be if the handle were of another type of wood, and it probably will not make any difference anyway because if the user is a noob and is going to strike the handle on his target a lot he is going to break the handle very quickly no matter how it is made or what type of wood it is....

The actual study that the article refers to is available as a pdf. download here and is much more complete and informative for those who take time to read it slowly and understand it: http://ac.els-cdn.com/S187770581201...t=1498568672_83780af876a2aa7f6a4c82d543bafde1

 

[garry3]

If you look at recommendation #3 in the article YOU linked to you will see that it backs up exactly what I said: "3. The orientation of the hitting surface on sugar maple and maple bats should be rotated 90 degrees (one-quarter turn of the bat). The edge grain in maple that is currently used as the hitting surface is the weaker of the two choices. To facilitate such a change in the hitting surface, manufacturers must rotate the logos they place on these bats by 90 degrees."

Maybe there is a remedial class in reading English at some local community college you can take????

The run-out of grain over the length of a handle or bat AND the orientation of the grain with or perpendicular to the direction of travel are two completely different subjects. Everyone knows that you want minimum or no run-out over the length of the handle or bat, but the grain orientation in relation to the direction of travel can work on edge or on face depending on the type of wood......

The study also says that bats usually break when struck about ten-inches from the end, and if you apply this to axes it means that usually the reason an axe breaks is that some noob has missed with his swing and has the handle hitting the target instead of the axe-head itself.

So all the controversy on this board about grain orientation is mostly hog-wash because if you take the type of wood the handle is made of into account it can mean the grain should be rotated ninety degrees from where it would be if the handle were of another type of wood, and it probably will not make any difference anyway because if the user is a noob and is going to strike the handle on his target a lot he is going to break the handle very quickly no matter how it is made or what type of wood it is....

The actual study that the article refers to is available as a pdf. download here and is much more complete and informative for those who take time to read it slowly and understand it: http://ac.els-cdn.com/S187770581201...t=1498568672_83780af876a2aa7f6a4c82d543bafde1

There is just a whole bunch going on here.
I have seen just tons of broken tool handles from all kinds of causes working in the trades for many years. And I have taken all kinds of different species of wood to their breaking point experimenting with different woods making self bows.
Even with that experience I have many unanswered questions. Theory is just not good enough and neither is taking some studies word for it or author from a book. If you want the truth you need to test your theory for your self. Go break some handles......

 

[Woodcraft]

If you look at recommendation #3 in the article YOU linked to you will see that it backs up exactly what I said: "3. The orientation of the hitting surface on sugar maple and maple bats should be rotated 90 degrees (one-quarter turn of the bat). The edge grain in maple that is currently used as the hitting surface is the weaker of the two choices. To facilitate such a change in the hitting surface, manufacturers must rotate the logos they place on these bats by 90 degrees."

Maybe there is a remedial class in reading English at some local community college you can take????

The run-out of grain over the length of a handle or bat AND the orientation of the grain with or perpendicular to the direction of travel are two completely different subjects. Everyone knows that you want minimum or no run-out over the length of the handle or bat, but the grain orientation in relation to the direction of travel can work on edge or on face depending on the type of wood......

The study also says that bats usually break when struck about ten-inches from the end, and if you apply this to axes it means that usually the reason an axe breaks is that some noob has missed with his swing and has the handle hitting the target instead of the axe-head itself.

So all the controversy on this board about grain orientation is mostly hog-wash because if you take the type of wood the handle is made of into account it can mean the grain should be rotated ninety degrees from where it would be if the handle were of another type of wood, and it probably will not make any difference anyway because if the user is a noob and is going to strike the handle on his target a lot he is going to break the handle very quickly no matter how it is made or what type of wood it is....

The actual study that the article refers to is available as a pdf. download here and is much more complete and informative for those who take time to read it slowly and understand it: http://ac.els-cdn.com/S187770581201...t=1498568672_83780af876a2aa7f6a4c82d543bafde1

I corrected you a page ago when you claimed this claptrap, and I will do so again.

You have zero point of reference. You jumped on to the end of the maple bat mlb stories and think you have found something. Well, you are wrong in the way you apply what you read.

It starts with the experts checking every single broken bat from the entire 2008 season. And those experts declared soundly that the majority of broken bats are from poor grain orientation and manufacturing defects.
Then they discovered that the drop weight of maple is harder to go into the desired -3 ish area. They were making the handles too thin.
They were over drying the maple. Making it weaker. And on. And on.
You are clinging to one part of the TOTAL PACKAGE that mlb uses to have less two piece/ breaks in maple.

Maple is nothing like hickory.
Hickory is more like ash.

The fact that maple(any wood) is stronger in impact strike better on the face than it is on the end grain is a poor argument. It really does not apply to your claim of ax handles.

Those impact tests on wood are done with both ends clamped down tight and it is struck in the middle. That is not how a bat or an ax handle take force to fail. That is why baseball bat testing is done with only one end held in rollers so it can move.

YOU HIT WITH ASH AGAINST THE END GRAIN!

YOU HIT WITH HICKORY AGAINST THE END GRAIN!

BOTH WOODS ARE POROUS. BOTH WILL EXPERIENCE DELAMINATION. THE LAYERS WILL SEPERATE UNDER STRESS AND STRIKE!

The reason hickory is not used for bats is because it is heavy. Worse than the maple. And you only get like 10% out of the wood worthy of a bat.
Maple also a get low of useable wood. They were just using it all at the beginning. Now there are standards.


You don't hit Ash against the face because it will crack and experience delamination and flaking.
It is the same for hickory.

If a maple bat is properly made it does not matter where you oriented the grain. On a properly made and selected maple bat hitting on the face grain will lessen the chances of a catastrophic two piece failure.


Try doing all the research. All handles in the hardware store are hickory. So all this "controversy" as you put it is not for nothing. Most axes you see on this forum have hickory handles. Hickory and ash SHOULD have to be oriented with the end grain towards the strike. For multiple reasons.

 

[garry3]

We have both hickory and ash available here at a number of different hardware stores. Even a mixture of both on the same rack at times. House Handle makes their hafts out of both. I once received about a half a dozen ash axe handles from House on an order. They are serviceable enough for my needs. I won't use it on a hard use handle though. I learned years ago that I went through twice as many ash as hickory handles on my rigging axe and hickory broke pretty regular.

 

[Woodcraft]

We have both hickory and ash available here at a number of different hardware stores. Even a mixture of both on the same rack at times. House Handle makes their hafts out of both. I once received about a half a dozen ash axe handles from House on an order. They are serviceable enough for my needs. I won't use it on a hard use handle though. I learned years ago that I went through twice as many ash as hickory handles on my rigging axe and hickory broke pretty regular.

Where are you?
We get only hickory around here. Ash is far softer and weaker in my experience as well. You get some serious whip out of it.
Maple seems like a poor choice for a striking tool handle. Comparitively. It was used here. But locally oak was commonly used. You can probably use just about anything. But if you really use an ax, or a hammer you will more than likely gravitate towards what works best. I'm sure there were several local favorites. But the availability of hickory everywhere exposed the clear winner when it came to axes.
I have a piece of apple I am going to turn into a hatchet handle. It's fun to try new woods. I worked an Ash handle. I hated it. It was like working with hardened Sponge. It was soft. I think it was southern. Perhaps the people who made the blank were unaware that Northern Ash is what makes a good handle. Southern is to soft.