The "Ask Nathan a question" thread

Nathan the Machinist said:
I have in my possession two Dan Keffeler competition cutters that are his own personal racing knives with multiple championships on them. They're worth a small fortune and they're what he uses to compete, so I'm a little bit nervous about even having them. They're his current knife and the one that preceded it. We sat down and discussed the end goal and it will incorporate the best from both knives. The goal being the availably of outstanding competition worthy knives for competitors. I fully intended for this to be the finest competition cutter available and for it to be priced so that more cutting enthusiasts can get involved in competitive bladesports. It's a humbling task that I've been building up to. I feel honored that Dan wants to do this collaboration and I hope that I prove worthy when it's all done.

The knife will be a 10" blade, 15" overall, 2" width to fit within the competition parameters. It will be made of CPM 4V or Vanadis 4 E and I think our heat treat protocol for these materials is going to put M4 out of the game. The blade geometry and handle geometry were developed by Dan and we're going to stay true to it, no compromises. <--- IMO we will be the only ones who get this right. We've been working on the heat treat for this material over the last 6-7 months. I don't have a specific hardness yet, but probably 62-63, but you all know it's not the hardness, but the microstructure that really counts when you're pushing the envelope. The edge geometry isn't finalized yet, but they will come race ready, sharpened by me and honed to specific geometry ready to win out-of-the-box. I'm serious. We know what we're doing, it is going to be the best in the business, you can bet on it.

I'm a little stoked about it...
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Copy and paste. That's a hell of a marketing ad right there. I'm pumped for this now. Sounds incredible.

Also, Dan is so damn cool. Lots of respect for you and everyone you collaborate with.
 
Nathan, it seems like most (all?) steel you work with are semi- or not officially stainless. I love all of them (haven't tried 4V) but if you had to pick a true stainless steel, what would it be? Just curious... :)
 
Yeah we generally choose our materials based on properties other than corrosion resistance and have been getting lucky. 4V turned out to not have much stain resistance at all, but it's a really good alloy.

I like Elmax and AEB-L. They're on two ends of the spectrum with carbide and abrasion resistance, but they're both durable with good edge stability and subsequently good edge retention potential. AEB-L is just barely stainless, which is one reason it has good edge stability, but it will rust. Elmax will rust too, even though it has a lot of chrome in it, because the high carbon content.

I think CPM 154 is a good performer and underrated. I don't like S30V, but I've seen good results with S35VN. I've tried M390 and CV20 with mixed results. In my testing I have found CV20 to be very sensitive to quench rate and the majority of manufacturers are using a HT process not capable of quenching it fast enough. That said, even given a somewhat optimized HT I wasn't blown away by it, there might just be too much "stuff" in it. <--- I think this is a common problem with makers of "super steels" they look at catra testing but not real world usage and don't see the problems with mushy crumbly edge.

All of these materials have a complex HT that is not always optimized, so you could have the best material in the world but a ho-hum HT and it won't perform. Given that I don't really dabble much in full stainless I'm afraid I don't really have a lot of info to offer you. I know there is some pretty good stuff out there, but with full stainless comes compromise, there's stuff in the matrix not pulling its weight.
 
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^^^ as always very, very informative. Up until recently, I had this snobbish penchant for anything in M390 but came to find out that as the Johhny-come-lately which I am, M390 was met with some critical suspicion when it had originally come onto the scene but with some marketing magic it was driven to become the bees knees ahead of some well tested, well tried and trusted tool steel types which had fallen out of fashion. Your nuggets of information are certainly further appreciated by this layman here.
 
Casinostocks said:
^^^ as always very, very informative. Up until recently, I had this snobbish penchant for anything in M390 but came to find out that as the Johhny-come-lately which I am, M390 was met with some critical suspicion when it had originally come onto the scene but with some marketing magic it was driven to become the bees knees ahead of some well tested, well tried and trusted tool steel types which had fallen out of fashion. Your nuggets of information are certainly further appreciated by this layman here.
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Casino, Elmax when properly Heat Treated is very Good Stuff in my experience! Hold an edge a very, very, long time:thumbsup: Obviously not as tough as D3V but "Tough Enough" IMO (Especially for a Stainless Steel):cool:
 
TommyGun56 said:
Casino, Elmax when properly Heat Treated is very Good Stuff in my experience! Hold an edge a very, very, long time:thumbsup: Obviously not as tough as D3V but "Tough Enough" IMO (Especially for a Stainless Steel):cool:
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I know this is a stretch. And take it with a grain of salt as I say this while carrying a knife in M390 in my pocket but Elmax and M390 have IMO been suceeded by Vanax 37. That is my current favourite steel in this category. Still love me some S90V. I'm not unhappy with any of these though. My folders are all perfectly awesome in Vanax 37, S90V or M390.

I have a great BRKT in Elmax as well.

In fixed blades my current favourite by far is D3V, but knowing how it does rust in my climate, I know that it is not suitable to being left in my pocket all day without fear. I'm sure I'll get water in the pivot etc while rinsing it after use or just sweat and humidity in the pocket and I'm sure it will corrode. Every well used knife in D3V that I've pulled apart has had corossion under the handle.

So D3V is still awesome in fixed but when it comes to folders I'll take a stain resistant stainless over maximum performace every day.
 
JustinFournier said:
I know this is a stretch. And take it with a grain of salt as I say this while carrying a knife in M390 in my pocket but Elmax and M390 have IMO been suceeded by Vanax 37. That is my current favourite steel in this category. Still love me some S90V. I'm not unhappy with any of these though. My folders are all perfectly awesome in Vanax 37, S90V or M390. I have a great BRKT in Elmax as well.
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Since I have no experience with Vanax 37, I can't really argue you with you Justin! My reference was more directed toward the 2 steels Nathan mentioned above (Elmax and AEB-L) I am always in Favor of Nathan experimenting with different Heat Treatment's and producing the one that will give me the most (Bang for the Buck)
bestbangforyourbuck.jpg
 
TommyGun56 said:
Casino, Elmax when properly Heat Treated is very Good Stuff in my experience! Hold an edge a very, very, long time:thumbsup: Obviously not as tough as D3V but "Tough Enough" IMO (Especially for a Stainless Steel):cool:
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Tommy, I agree with you on Elmax yet that's another steel which was supplanted by M390 / CPM-20CV which became steels "du jour" over Elmax. Obviously someone like Justin who collects and uses high end pricey folders / flippers has understandably different selection criteria in the environment where he lives as his steels need to hold up to the climate elements of his locale, factors which do not register too high on my current criteria. For my current purposes, edge stability, edge toughness, ease of sharpening / touch up register higher than corrosion but I am sure that would change if I were to move up to the Pacific North West region. That said, I'd loathe myself if I owned a $1K+ folders which ended up looking like spotted hyenas if/when exposed to the weather elements. Fixed blade though in the $200-$500 range, I don't care much about their "worn in" appearances when intended as users!
 
Just to expound a bit more, I am all for innovation and experimentation with new material but not to the extent that it bottle necks production. What I like about CPK is that they don't mess around and they don't waste time with going into the hyper theoretical and experimentation mode at the expense of slowing down their production in major ways by just tweaking and fiddling.

As Nathan gains more experience with various steels and optimizes them to where he feels confident about presenting new patterns or rehash of his older patterns in those newer steels, I would be just as fast as anyone on here to jump onto that bandwagon but in the meantime, if he decides to revisit some of his existing patterns or some future upcoming patterns in the good old trusted A2, D2 and Elemax; I would still be awaiting their availability with bated breath :)
 
Casinostocks said:
Tommy, I agree with you on Elmax yet that's another steel which was supplanted by M390 / CPM-20CV which became steels "du jour" over Elmax. Obviously someone like Justin who collects and uses high end pricey folders / flippers has understandably different selection criteria in the environment where he lives as his steels need to hold up to the climate elements of his locale, factors which do not register too high on my current criteria. For my current purposes, edge stability, edge toughness, ease of sharpening / touch up register higher than corrosion but I am sure that would change if I were to move up to the Pacific North West region. That said, I'd loathe myself if I owned a $1K+ folders which ended up looking like spotted hyenas if/when exposed to the weather elements. Fixed blade though in the $200-$500 range, I don't care much about their "worn in" appearances when intended as users!
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To be honest Nathan can just make them all out of D3V! I love this steel, meets all my requirement's for a hard use Knife! I love it!!!
 
I don't see the purpose of using Elmax personally. It has a high enough carbon content that it will rust. If you are going to have rust, might as well go D3V.

Uddeholm responded to that concern with the Vanax line, now I think on it's 3rd or 4th version.

In Vanax they replaced most of the carbon with nitrogen. So it's even suitable for use in and around salt water.

It has great toughness, edge retention and is still very grindable.

Nathan is also looking into Vanadis I believe.

So IMO Vanax has basically replaced Elmax
 
This steel, that steel, this design, this handle material, blah blah blah. It never ends. Nathan and Mr. Busse are the currently the kings of steel right now IMHO. If they both teamed up and took a page out of each others book....well...

"With our combined strength we could end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy!

Could you imagine an INFI Shiv with Mammoth Tooth handle scales? How about a Battle Mistress with Nathan's geometry and Tero Tuf handle? How bout an Anorexic Basic 4 LE with Nathan's D2 for skinning? Endless possibilities I tell you. Endless.

So I guess my question is; Nathan, when are you two teaming up? (Bring Lorien and Dan along too!)
 
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ExtraBaconPlease said:
This steel, that steel, this design, this handle material, blah blah blah. It never ends. Nathan and Mr. Busse are the currently the kings of steel right now IMHO. If they both teamed up and took a page out of each others book....well...

"With our combined strength we could end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy!

Could you imagine an INFI Shiv with Mammoth Tooth handle scales? How about a Battle Mistress with Nathan's geometry and Tero Tuf handle? How bout an Anorexic Basic 4 LE with Nathan's D2 for skinning? Endless possibilities I tell you. Endless.

So I guess my question is; Nathan, when are you two teaming up? (Bring Lorien and Dan along too!)
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Not sure you bring Dan along anywhere! Dude has won like a Bazillion Chopping Championships! His Sasquatch is the Best Large Chopper I have ever used!
Looks like he won the Atlanta competition also!
My question to Nathan is what steel is presently winning the Majority of the Championships?
 
TommyGun56 said:
Not sure you bring Dan along anywhere! Dude has won like a Bazillion Chopping Championships! His Sasquatch is the Best Large Chopper I have ever used!
Looks like he won the Atlanta competition also!
My question to Nathan is what steel is presently winning the Majority of the Championships?
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I think M4 has been the go-to, but 4V or V4E might have the potential outperform. I believe that is the direction Nathan wanted to go. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Nathan, with a Heavy Chopper, Bladesports Chopper, NASK and other continuing patterns, have you yet decided, or are you close to deciding, on what you'll put up for the next Friday sale? Not so much when, but what?
 
betzner said:
Nathan, with a Heavy Chopper, Bladesports Chopper, NASK and other continuing patterns, have you yet decided, or are you close to deciding, on what you'll put up for the next Friday sale? Not so much when, but what?
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We're getting another batch of the Light Choppers out to the pre-order this week. The next Friday sale is probably going to be on the 16th, a few 4V EDC.

I haven't got our scales VMC back into order after our re-organization yet, so we're lacking scales at the moment...
 
We leveled the Mori this week. It's an interesting process a little different than other mills I've leveled. More like a lathe really. It has eight leveling jack screws. You start with 1 and 2, and 5 and 6, and get the mill level. Then using a precision level calibrated to 50 millionth of an inch per inch per division you measure the twist in the X and Y axis by taking measurements across the travel and flatten it out. Because our concrete floor is less rigid than it ought to be I found we needed to lean it back a tiny hair at this point, a few thou. Then you start putting weight on 7 and 8 to bring the Z axis column vertical, which is measured with a tenths indicator turned from the spindle sweeping the aforementioned flat table. This puts more weight on the front screws bringing the machine back into level as the floor yields and the spine of the machine comes true. Then any side to side tilt on the Z is tweaked in with 3 and 4. When it's all done the mill is level, there is no twist to the X and Y and Z is perpendicular to X and Y. We'd done a rough level and let it sit a while so the floor could settle a few weeks before doing these final adjustments. You'd think a little 16X30 mill that weighs 14,000 pounds would be pretty stiff, but I found it tended to sag under its own weight, and our little concrete floor is not as stiff as it looks, so it took all afternoon but we got it dialed in to high levels of accuracy. In contrast, our 6,000 pound Romi mini mill has four jack screws and can be leveled in half an hour.

The Mori is rated to repeat to .00004 (that's five decimal places) where our other mills are .0001 so (at least in theory) all this extra effort should yield good accuracy. I've never had a Mori before. It has thermocouples in the casting and an AC unit thingy to chill oil to 1 1/2 degrees below the casting temperature which it circulates through the spindle casing to reduce the effects of thermal expansion. They used ceramic in the spindle taper. Not the bearings but the actual spindle. That's a little different animal than I've used before. We got the control backed up and maxed out the memory and are ready to put it into service...
 
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What are the recommended flooring requirements for seven ton mill? IIRC, a bus stop is typically specified as ten inches of 4K P.C.C. atop six inches of agreggate to handle roughly twenty tons of curb weight (more or less). And how is vibration isolated so that it does not interfere with neighboring equipment?
 
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