THE Hollow Handle Knife Thread

I also came up with a rough outline of the design I mentioned earlier as to what I think would be an "ideal" Survival Knife (the mechanism depicted on the pommel represents the fixation for the slingshot):

P4027622_zpswc2snfyu.jpg

I'm confused again. :confused: Your design seems to be the exact opposite of what you like in a survival knife - a knife with a forward heavy balance. Your design reminds me of the Dartmoor Survival Knife, but the Dartmoor's belly is in a much more useful location for chopping.

Dartmoor-Knife-CSK185-and-Wilkinson-Sword-Survival-Knife_650.jpg


Dartmoor-Knife-CSK185-heavy-chopping_650.jpg


Dartmoor-Knife-CSK185-chopping_650.jpg
 
I don't understand how a recurve has only downsides. :confused: Recurves are designed to shift the weight forward making them excel at chopping. Different variations of the bolo knife have been used for survival for 100 years. They must be doing something right.


WWI Bolo Knife, 1917
boloknife-wwi-u-s-issued-bolo-knife-by-a-c-co-of-chicago.jpg


Bark River Bolo Knife, 2017
grasso-bolo-36-e1374437229607-600x372.jpg

The Bolos you show have almost no recurve in any area they are intended to use, so they don't suffer much: All they do is provide a dull unsharpenable 2" section near the ricasso...

You don't have to use a recurve to flare the blade. It is the flare of the blade that shifts the weight forward, not the recurve.

Recurves largely prevent the use of flat sharpening surfaces, and flat surfaces are the only thing that can provide a steady shadow angle reference point without guiding tools. Yes rods an reach into a recurve, but I doubt those diamond coated rods are much good at re-profiling anything, since they are supposed to remove material, not realign a bent micro-apex like a chef's steel: Grinding rods without a guiding mechanism offer no shadow angle reference for free hand re-profiling, so they undoubtedly suck at it...

I asked Josh how did he do the amazing re-profile he did on my -pretty but mostly useless- recurved SOG Fatcat folder: He told me he uses the edge of the grinding belt, and that you have to do it in one go...: Good luck replicating that freehand with hand tools...

Recurves are exactly the same kind of nonsense as the "it balances on the guard" syndrome: It's the simple idea that, if it's an old tradition, it must be good...

Gaston
 
I'm confused again. :confused: Your design seems to be the exact opposite of what you like in a survival knife - a knife with a forward heavy balance. Your design reminds me of the Dartmoor Survival Knife, but the Dartmoor's belly is in a much more useful location for chopping.

Dartmoor-Knife-CSK185-and-Wilkinson-Sword-Survival-Knife_650.jpg

P4027622_zpswc2snfyu.jpg


The Dartmoor has a 7.25" blade, while my drawing easily has a 10" blade... Surely, despite the added weight of the Dartmoor saber grind, you cannot be saying there would be any comparison in chopping efficiency? Given the mass of the Dartomoor's handle, it must barely be blade-heavy...

Putting the belly far forward can only be of use on a very long blade over 11", and with a lot of flare. Knives below 11" cannot rely on the blade weight being spun to be efficient... Compare the Kukri-like BK-4 against a BK-9 and it cannot even compete, despite the Bk-9 being near the bottom of the barrel among large knives because of its thin 3/16" stock and heavy full tang handle...

For efficient chopping, knives below 11" that are pointy cannot rely entirely on being spun: They must use wrist locking to one extent or another to bring some of the weight of the arm into the cut. If you take the Cold Steel Trailmaster, which is about level or below the BK-9 in chopping performance, this is a knife that cannot be wrist-locked at all because the handle is so thin it moves around in your hand (to the point of etching the hand full of red dots from its new style round checkering violently moving around within it), which ruins entirely any attempt to bring the weight of the arm into the cut... Because of this, the Trailmaster forces you to spin it to use the weight of the blade alone, which is greatly helped by the stick tang and the heft of the 5/16" stock blade: The knife is actually quite pleasant in this mode, giving an impression of efficiency, but the actual performance is miserable compared to a knife of the same weight, like the Lile "Mission", which can be wrist-locked thanks to its fat handle...

Wrist-locking is less pleasant but about doubles the chopping performance: The requirements of emergencies are not the same as for knives that are used all day for non-emergencies: It is illusory to assume that everyday chopping comfort translates into actual maximum performance for the same size: If you spin you either have to go much larger and blunter-tipped (although the SP-53 is a reasonable size at 10" and 23 ounces, and is one of the few that can probably really do it, but it is quite blunt-tipped), or you have to settle for dreadfully shallow bites (over twice as shallow in the Trailmaster compared to the Lile Mission)...

Since wrist-locking is unpleasant on impact, the way to alleviate this (besides a very thin 0.020" hollow ground edge which "softens" the blow the best) is to spin the knife slightly, and hit as close to the guard as possible: This is about 3-4" into the blade, which is roughly where the drawing I did peaks its belly: If you understand wrist locking there is nothing mysterious about the design I did...

I used a Full Flat Grind in the design to optimize the sawback, but the same design probably would work even better as a Saber Hollow Grind if you don't mind 3-5 more ounces, and a less effective saw...


Gaston
 
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Gaston, you're just showing your ignorance on the subject. Your lack of understanding about recurves and blade design, (as evidenced by your knifelike object which appears to be a farm implement from an 80's European action movie set in the future) is ridiculous.

You should go full scale production with that "knife" you concocted and I'm sure you will sell many to the competition survival-chopping slingshotting crowd. The same with the "balances at the guard" business. Knifemakers can balance the blade just about wherever they like, within reason, and for general use knives (almost the very definition of a "survival knife") at or right in front of the guard is what most people want.

And it works, keeping hand fatigue down and making what might otherwise be an unwieldy blade more manageable by counterbalancing it. Your obsession with chopping is fine, do what you want with your knives. But know that most of the people reading this thread are not falling for this drivel you're spewing as though it were gospel fact.

A quick look at your knifelike object you drew raises a number of serious issues. But you should find this out for yourself by attempting to make one of those things. Best of luck.

Sam

Ps: Sorry to see the buttcap ground away on the Cox. TAH had the right idea, just have a new one made out of aluminum and preserve the original. What a waste. I'm sure collectors are happy though, as you burn through vintage knives you are driving the prices up on their collection.







The Bolos you show have almost no recurve in any area they are intended to use, so they don't suffer much: All they do is provide a dull unsharpenable 2" section near the ricasso...

You don't have to use a recurve to flare the blade. It is the flare of the blade that shifts the weight forward, not the recurve.

Recurves largely prevent the use of flat sharpening surfaces, and flat surfaces are the only thing that can provide a steady shadow angle reference point without guiding tools. Yes rods an reach into a recurve, but I doubt those diamond coated rods are much good at re-profiling anything, since they are supposed to remove material, not realign a bent micro-apex like a chef's steel: Grinding rods without a guiding mechanism offer no shadow angle reference for free hand re-profiling, so they undoubtedly suck at it...

I asked Josh how did he do the amazing re-profile he did on my -pretty but mostly useless- recurved SOG Fatcat folder: He told me he uses the edge of the grinding belt, and that you have to do it in one go...: Good luck replicating that freehand with hand tools...

Recurves are exactly the same kind of nonsense as the "it balances on the guard" syndrome: It's the simple idea that, if it's an old tradition, it must be good...

Gaston

The Dartmoor has a 7.25" blade, while my drawing easily has a 10" blade... Surely, despite the added weight of the Dartmoor saber grind, you cannot be saying there would be any comparison in chopping efficiency? Given the mass of the Dartomoor's handle, it must barely be blade-heavy...

Putting the belly far forward can only be of use on a very long blade over 11", and with a lot of flare. Knives below 11" cannot rely on the blade weight being spun to be efficient... Compare the Kukri-like BK-4 against a BK-9 and it cannot even compete, despite the Bk-9 being near the bottom of the barrel among large knives because of its thin 3/16" stock and heavy full tang handle...

For efficient chopping, knives below 11" that are pointy cannot rely entirely on being spun: They must use wrist locking to one extent or another to bring some of the weight of the arm into the cut. If you take the Cold Steel Trailmaster, which is about level or below the BK-9 in chopping performance, this is a knife that cannot be wrist-locked at all because the handle is so thin it moves around in your hand (to the point of etching the hand full of red dots from its new style round checkering violently moving around within it), which ruins entirely any attempt to bring the weight of the arm into the cut... Because of this, the Trailmaster forces you to spin it to use the weight of the blade alone, which is greatly helped by the stick tang and the heft of the 5/16" stock blade: The knife is actually quite pleasant in this mode, giving an impression of efficiency, but the actual performance is miserable compared to knife of the same weight, like the Lile "Mission", which can be wrist-locked thanks to its fat handle...

Wrist-locking is less pleasant but about doubles the chopping performance: The requirements of emergencies are not the same as for knives that are used all day for non-emergencies: It is illusory to assume that everyday chopping comfort translates into actual maximum performance for the same size: If you spin you either have to go much larger and blunter-tipped (although the SP-53 is a reasonable size at 10" and 23 ounces, and is one of the few that can probably really do it, but it is quite blunt-tipped), or you have to settle for dreadfully shallow bites (over twice as shallow in the Trailmaster compared to the Lile Mission)...

Since wrist-locking is unpleasant on impact, the way to alleviate this (besides a very thin 0.020" hollow ground edge which "softens" the blow the best) is to spin the knife slightly, and hit as close to the guard as possible: This is about 3-4" into the blade, which is roughly where the drawing I did peaks its belly: If you understand wrist locking there is nothing mysterious about the design I did...

I used a Full Flat Grind in the design to optimize the sawback, but the same design probably would work even better as a Saber Hollow Grind if you don't mind 3-5 more ounces, and a less effective saw...


Gaston

This stuff is priceless. You should alert the foremost experts on these subjects that you've figured out where all of them went wrong. You're about to revolutionize the industry! :thumbup:
 
He's not happy with what I do with my knives, and is unembarrassed enough to let me know... That is getting pretty close to unembarrassable... :)

Gaston
 
Gaston, you're just showing your ignorance on the subject. Your lack of understanding about recurves and blade design, (as evidenced by your knifelike object which appears to be a farm implement from an 80's European action movie set in the future) is ridiculous.

You should go full scale production with that "knife" you concocted and I'm sure you will sell many to the competition survival-chopping slingshotting crowd. The same with the "balances at the guard" business. Knifemakers can balance the blade just about wherever they like, within reason, and for general use knives (almost the very definition of a "survival knife") at or right in front of the guard is what most people want.

And it works, keeping hand fatigue down and making what might otherwise be an unwieldy blade more manageable by counterbalancing it. Your obsession with chopping is fine, do what you want with your knives. But know that most of the people reading this thread are not falling for this drivel you're spewing as though it were gospel fact.

A quick look at your knifelike object you drew raises a number of serious issues. But you should find this out for yourself by attempting to make one of those things. Best of luck.

Sam

Ps: Sorry to see the buttcap ground away on the Cox. TAH had the right idea, just have a new one made out of aluminum and preserve the original. What a waste. I'm sure collectors are happy though, as you burn through vintage knives you are driving the prices up on their collection.











This stuff is priceless. You should alert the foremost experts on these subjects that you've figured out where all of them went wrong. You're about to revolutionize the industry! :thumbup:

Excellent post :thumbup:
 
The design of the recurve certainly have proven itself through time.

Ironic (tragic?), that one with a fixation on chopping does not understand nor care for recurves.

Study the Falcata for example.

In fact, read more, post less (waaaay less).
 
The Dartmoor has a 7.25" blade, while my drawing easily has a 10" blade... Surely, despite the added weight of the Dartmoor saber grind, you cannot be saying there would be any comparison in chopping efficiency? Given the mass of the Dartomoor's handle, it must barely be blade-heavy...

I don't own a Dartmoor, but this tester seems to think it is an effective chopper for its size, which is obviously due to its blade shape. Link
 
I'm trying to figure out why Gaston insists on holding the knife as tightly as possible when chopping.
Whether I am using an axe, a kukhri, a Becker, etc., I loosen my grip ever so slightly (not enough to lose control of the blade, obviously) at the point of impact and let the blade do the work of burying itself in the wood.
I may lose a sixteenth-inch of penetration, but the fatigue is reduced greatly.

I do the same with a hammer, a splitting maul, a chainsaw, mountain bike handlebar grips, pneumatic chisel.
Am I missing out on some odd pleasure in using a grip that rattles my teeth on impact of the implement?
 
I'm trying to figure out why Gaston insists on holding the knife as tightly as possible when chopping.

Hey buddy, don't knock the Kung Fu grip until you've tried it! :D Note: even Joe appreciates a good recurve. ;)


50th-Anniversary-Spirit-Iron-Knife-4.jpg
 
How is the 2 inches near the choil unsharpenable? I mean really. I had quit posting in this thread because of all the incredible bull, but I just gotta know how that can't be sharpened.
 
How is the 2 inches near the choil unsharpenable? I mean really. I had quit posting in this thread because of all the incredible bull, but I just gotta know how that can't be sharpened.

I love a good rhetorical question! Of course it can be if one knows how :)
 
Thought of Gaston when I saw this...The Ultimate Survival Chopper! :thumbup:


622667_ts.jpg


622667i_ts.jpg
 
Over on the Buck Knives forum, there is a discussion regarding Paul Bos heat treating. Here is some interesting Buckmaster information that came out of that discussion. Thought I'd post it here in case you Buckmaster owners missed it there.

"I'll add this story Mr. Bos relayed to me: Some of Buck's models were tricky to heat treat. As was the case with the Buck Masters and M9's. These have welded / penned on hollow handles and at this short tang it cannot be left as hard as the blade coming out of the oven. Mr. Bos served and was a solider so, he knew something of what a service knife is put thru. As he was working on these knives he took them and spent time at Camp Pendleton and had the soldiers put them through many tests. He cared about what was put in the hands of our soliders because their lives depended on that tool. As he worked on this knife he carried several he had heat treated different and marked them. So, when one of our armoured tanks would roll by he'd dash out to it with his sack of Buck Masters and lay them before the tracks. After the tank rolled over them he'd gather them up and take them back to his lab. Take them apart and see which handles & tang didn't show cracks. Once he found this he knew how to proceed in heat treating them. Some real world testing he put his product through."
 
How's this for a very rare Randall? Apparently 1 of 11 made in 1988. Too cool!


1-4.jpg
 
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