Whisky Question

james terrio said:
Lots of half-understood old wive's tales and outright bullshit floating around here. :rolleyes:

JD is definitely not whisky, because that's the traditional Scottish spelling... and JD is NOT Scotch whisky. Nor is any other bourbon.

True Scotch is never made with any American corn/maize; bourbon is always made with at least 51% American corn, usually a much higher percentage.

That's the whole point... when scots/irish settlers came to what we now call Appalachia and the Middle South, they brought their highly-developed skills and technology with them, but found very little barley (or peat, for that matter). So they used plentiful, easy-to-grow and ferment/distill maize to make their liquor, instead.

Is JD bourbon? Yes. Actual laws and trademark rules require anything labeled "bourbon" to be made from at least 51% corn, among other very specific guidelines. Jack Daniel's fits within all of those guidelines, so yes, they could call it bourbon without telling a single lie.

JD is very much a "Tennessee whiskey", and there are even stricter laws and rules for that. Mostly involving charcoal-filtering, and aging requirements, as well as the grains used in the mash and other techniques.

So the upshot is, Yes all Tennessee whiskey is (technically) bourbon. But not every bourbon is Tennessee whiskey.


Untrue. First of all, Bourbon County is in KY, not TN. More importantly, there is no legal or even cultural "rule" that bourbon must be made in Bourbon County.
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I'm not arguing with you James, but it's definitely all confusing, and even the "experts" don't always agree. For example, George Dickel's website disagrees with you, stating that TN Whiskey is NOT Bourbon. See the first FAQ here. The text says,

"First of all, Tennessee whisky isn't a bourbon. It's a separate category of whisky, differing mostly in the extra steps taken after distilling. One of these steps is charcoal mellowing, a process in which whisky is slowly seeped through vats packed with charcoal. Tennessee whisky distillers make their charcoal from aged, hard sugar maple trees, and we still fire ours the old-fashioned way: in the open air."

Also, interestingly, they use the old Scottish spelling of Whisky without the "e" due to George's belief that his product was of equal or greater quality:

"Born 40 years after the signing of the Declaration of Independence, George A. Dickel was an established Nashville merchant. In 1867, he visited Tullahoma with his wife, Augusta. Three years later, Cascade Hollow would be home to the Dickel Distillery. Declaring his whisky of equal quality to the finest scotch, George Dickel followed in the Scottish tradition of spelling whisky without an "e."

So, there's that. :shrug:
 
james terrio said:
Thanks! I have not yet visited the JD distillery, although I fully intend to.

More fun facts about bourbon... I mentioned the requirement that bourbon must contain at least 51% corn. Most bourbon is all corn, but that leaves a good deal of leeway for different mashbills, to achieve different flavor profiles. For instance, I'm sometimes in the mood for the dryer, more "peppery" flavor of rye whiskey, and there a number of distillers who include rye in their bourbon to achieve that. Sometimes I do not want the "sour" classic bourbon taste, so I choose a "wheated bourbon" ... which is exactly what it sounds like,,, traditional bourbon distilling/aging, but with a good amount of wheat in the mash. That gives the finished product a much sweeter, smoother aspect. :)



Wrong. Charcoal filtering is only required for Tennessee whiskeys. Most whiskey makers do not employ charcoal filtering. Google "the Lincoln County process" for more details.
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The JD distillery tour is definitely worth doing at least once. I think I've been on it 7 or 8 times now, lol. :D The first couple times I went on my own, but then I've been with co-workers who haven't seen it many times since. I've spent a fair amount of time in the nearby area at AEDC for work over the years.

Speaking of that, if you're in the area for the JD tour, don't forget to stop by the George Dickel distillery for a tour there as well! :thumbup: Only about about 20 minutes away, back to the East toward the highway. Dickel is a LOT smaller, but they do a few things a bit differently and it's interesting to see.



I was extremely fortunate the last time I was there! They had just started their aged single-barrel program, and I was able to get a bottle of the exclusive 14-year from only the second barrel of the program!!! :eek: :cool: The first two barrels were only sold on-site, and buyers could sign the barrels if they chose to (I did).





They had about a dozen bottles left, and hindsight being 20/20, I should have purchased multiples. :( I only missed getting a bottle from the first barrel by a couple weeks, but that's the way it goes. If memory serves, they were selling for about $90 each. I opened this one, and enjoy a bit every now and then. :D :thumbup:

 
Willfull ignorance of simple, demonstrable facts is something for which I have very little patience. You can lead a horse to water, and all that.

SpyderPhreak said:
I'm not arguing with you James, but it's definitely all confusing, and even the "experts" don't always agree. For example, George Dickel's website disagrees with you, stating that TN Whiskey is NOT Bourbon.
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One more time... Ol' George's website is "technically" and "legally" wrong in that regard. Dickel whisky IS bourbon, no matter how they spell it or market it, because it fits the definition of what bourbon must be. It is "more" than bourbon, because nothing requires bourbon to be charcoal filtered. That is historically, and legally, a hallmark of Tennessee sour mash. GD is definitely NOT Scotch, no matter how they spell "whisky".

I personally think the various George Dickel Tennessee whatever-they-call-them :rolleyes: are really quite enjoyable... but if they feel sassy and truly feel they stand up to the best Scotch... that's for others to decide.

It's not confusing at all. The legal and trademark definitions for the various forms of whiskey/whisky are extremely clear. Don't trust me, and don't trust anyone trying to sell you anything. Look it up yourself... This is not rocket science, and it's not a big secret. It is a matter of specific recipes and techniques.
 
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We're absolutely on the same page James. I was just providing the counter-point / devil's advocate point of view.

I've even brought these issues up on the tours at GD, and the line (excuse) you'll get from them is, "That's how ole George wanted it" or something to that effect. They won't discuss it. But that's probably obvious after the recent TN legal battles. :rolleyes: Whether they really believe the BS, or it's rooted in the corporate fighting between the JD / GD owners, I could really care less. The tour is still worth the time though, but JD's is a LOT better!

Whisky was around WAY before Whiskey.
 
Jamus !
I'm sending a letter to Ireland. I'm gonna try to get a batch labeled
"JAMUSON" .
Who knows, it might fly.
 
SpyderPhreak said:
But that's probably obvious after the recent TN legal battles.
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I'm not at all sure that JD and GD were/are on opposite sides of that conflict to change or relax the "legal" definition of what makes mostly-corn, sour-mash, charcoal-filtered and charred-oak-aged liquor "TENNESSEE WHISKY". JD and GD have the most to protect by keeping that exactly the same as it is now. And they damn well should protect that! There is NO reason to change those laws and trademarks and so forth.

My understanding was, other johnny-come-lately's were trying to water down the requirements in order to CHEAT and put a historically-trusted label on their half-vast efforts to compete with the real deal. My gut instinct is... forget them nitwits who try that. :thumbdn:

Make your own way, newbie, don't tear down the giants on whose shoulders you stand.

But hey... I've been wrong before, and I have no inside information. Just my opinion. So don't quote me on that.
 
Greykilt said:
Jamus !
I'm sending a letter to Ireland. I'm gonna try to get a batch labeled
"JAMUSON" .
Who knows, it might fly.
Click to expand...

That's far more than kind! I am sincerely humbled that anyone would even consider typing such a crazy idea out loud.

If you find a distillery willing to bottle such a monstrosity and put anything resembling my name on it, KY, TN, Scotland or Ireland... well shucks... have them send me a case and I'll be more than happy to field-test it. ;)
 
Beer.
And you can't just say beer anymore because there are so many different brands and so many different styles and so many different kinds.
Home brew, Stadium brew, Craft brew, Micro brew, etc.
How about this one, "Live Cask Conditioned" ?
Lights. Darks. Reds. Blacks. Black AND Tans.
Wheat. Oat. Hops. Extra Hops. Gluten Free :)confused: )
Lagers, Pilsners, Ales, Stouts, Porters, on and on.
And once you decide all that then you have to decide to what degree.
Stout or Extra Stout. Light or Ultra Light. Bock or Double Bock or Triple Bock.

And then there's Cider.... :eek:
 
I was really bummed when they stopped making Mackeson's XXX Triple Stout.
 
james terrio said:
Thanks! I have not yet visited the JD distillery, although I fully intend to.

More fun facts about bourbon... I mentioned the requirement that bourbon must contain at least 51% corn. Most bourbon is all corn, but that leaves a good deal of leeway for different mashbills, to achieve different flavor profiles. For instance, I'm sometimes in the mood for the dryer, more "peppery" flavor of rye whiskey, and there a number of distillers who include rye in their bourbon to achieve that. Sometimes I do not want the "sour" classic bourbon taste, so I choose a "wheated bourbon" ... which is exactly what it sounds like,,, traditional bourbon distilling/aging, but with a good amount of wheat in the mash. That gives the finished product a much sweeter, smoother aspect. :)



Wrong. Charcoal filtering is only required for Tennessee whiskeys. Most whiskey makers do not employ charcoal filtering. Google "the Lincoln County process" for more details.
Click to expand...

Thank you sir! I've learned something... now, drink on!
 
Jack Daniels and Dickels are both, by recipe, a Bourbon until they are charcoal mellowed, after which they become Tennessee Whiskey.

Prichards also calls itself a Tennessee Whiskey, however it does not follow the Lincoln County Process of charcoal mellowing through a vat of maple charcoal so I don't personally recognize it as a Tennessee Whiskey.

best

mqqn
 
Thanks JT - I have been a Tennessee Squire for 33 years, and I have a small collection of Jack Daniels....

DSC_9885.JPG


best

mqqn
 
Hey guys--ever hear of Widow Jane bourbon? I just read a review; I think I'll need to try some--anyone have any experience with it?
 
mqqn said:
Thanks JT - I have been a Tennessee Squire for 33 years, and I have a small collection of Jack Daniels....

DSC_9885.JPG


best

mqqn
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Dang... that's a gorgeous bar. :thumbup:

Although I'm not a huge fan of JD No. 7 (I drank way too much of it in my misspent youth - I blame that on the rock'n'roll), I have enjoyed some of their other offerings.

As it happens, my wife and I own and live on a bit of land here in East Tennessee, where her family goes back more generations than I can count. Our intent is to retire here. I have heard that the only way to become a Tennessee Squire is to be nominated by someone who is already a Tennessee Squire.

*ahem*
 
Thanks - pm sent.

best

mqqn
 
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