Why s90v and all these other high carbide steels suck for knives

newdebate said:
You're thinking of s35vn.
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Nope.. I see S35VN on higher end knives, S30V is on damn near every plain * Golden model Spyderco out there, Buck uses it a quite frequently now, Benchmade loves the stuff. It's very much prevalent in the knife world these days.
 
I'm torn on this topic. Is there really only one answer?

On the one hand, there are uses for which I cannot tell the difference in edge holding between a 1095 traditional and an S110V blade. Whittling soft woods, for example. Both will stay sharp basically forever.

But my dedicated cardboard knives are thin bladed, high alloy, high hardness s110v and zdp189. I can very much tell the difference between them and 1095 in how much cardboard I get through before my subjective experience is of too much force or tearing, and I want to hit a stone.

So, for some uses, I buy the argument that low alloy is better due to cost and ease of maintenance. And for other uses, I buy the argument that the newer high alloy steels are noticeably better at edge holding.

Is there really a case to be made that one of these experiences is false?
 
dunno about the OP but i rather use m390, s90v, maxamet etc. in my use it lasts a very long time and with my abrasives doesnt take long to sharpen any of them. my use with sandvik and other budget steel is annoying more than anything.

i encourage knife makers to keep putting out great steel, tho i do implore them to focus more heavily on heat treatment to refine the steel more than just a hrc #.
 
I humbly learned, given appropriate ht - s30v can be very good: http://www.bladeforums.com/threads/...ving-foundation.1409721/page-29#post-17310305

A pinhole into complexity of this subject matter
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The biggest variable in knife use is the user. Whether you prefer high or low carbide knives depends on how you use them.

For nearly every thing i carry a knife for, i prefer lower carbide steels, 420hc, bd1, 12c27, etc. My tolerance for dullness is pretty low, so i sharpen pretty regularly. No advantage for high carbide steels there.

I have fairly simple sharpening tools, Norton, King, and Sharpmaker stones. No advantage to high carbide there either.

I have some small DMT stones, and one knife in S110V. Even with the diamond, it doesn't get as sharp as my other knives.

My knife budget had dropped recently. No advantage for high carbide steels there either.

I use rather thin edge angles, 12 degrees and 15 degree microbevel. No advantage there.

I tested S110V and BD1 side by side, and found a slight advantage for BD1.

I can accept that I do things differently than a lot of knife users, but i see no point in dropping more money on knives that need special sharpening gear, and don't offer any advantage in my uses.

If i used 20 to 25 degree bevels, cut a lot of sand paper, and let a knife get dull enough to just barely slice paper, my knife choices would likely be different.
 
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McFeeli said:
Nope.. I see S35VN on higher end knives, S30V is on damn near every plain * Golden model Spyderco out there, Buck uses it a quite frequently now, Benchmade loves the stuff. It's very much prevalent in the knife world these days.
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I have zero blades made from s30v steel because of the micro-chipping illustrated in the original video. That was the stated reason for s35vn becoming a minimum standard. We must be vacationing in opposite hemispheres of the "knife world".
 
newdebate said:
I have zero blades made from s30v steel because of the micro-chipping illustrated in the original video. That was the stated reason for s35vn becoming a minimum standard. We must be vacationing in opposite hemispheres of the "knife world".
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There's a huge difference in whether you, as an individual, have S30V in your collection and S30V being used in the knife industry, pal.
 
newdebate said:
I have zero blades made from s30v steel because of the micro-chipping illustrated in the original video. That was the stated reason for s35vn becoming a minimum standard. We must be vacationing in opposite hemispheres of the "knife world".
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s35VN is the "minimum standard" eh? Amazing that I've been walking around blissfully unaware of how many of my knives that perform more than adequately for my needs don't even meet the minimum standard. I just feel like such a dope.
 
19-3ben said:
This. s30V has become a staple of the industry. I do see s35vn around, but it's far outnumbered by the number of s30v I see available.
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From BHQ stock summary:

Spyderco s30v = 95, s35vn = 10

Zero Tolerance. s30v = 17, s35vn = 24

Chris Reeve s30v = 2, s35vn = 193

Benchmade s30v = 102, cpm154 = 233
 
19-3ben said:
s35VN is the "minimum standard" eh? Amazing that I've been walking around blissfully unaware of how many of my knives that perform more than adequately for my needs don't even meet the minimum standard. I just feel like such a dope.
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Best results from the edge retention thread:

s30v = 620 cuts

s35vn = 760 cuts

These were customs both .006" behind the edge.
 
All I read was a bunch of theory and opinion. I would like to hear some experiences you have had with high carbide steels. We all already know where Cliff stands on this. Have YOU had any issues with high carbide steels?

I have knives in a lot of steels. Steels form 1095, 52100, 12c27 and 13c26 all the way up to S90V, S110V and Maxamet. I have many of the steels in the middle too. S30V, XHP, Elmax, M390 and many more. I have used S110V and S90V to butcher elk and deer and have also used them to clean a lot of fish. I have used them to carve a lot of dried seasoned hardwoods. Instead of filling this post with theory and opinion I will say that I have seen no significant issues with high carbide steels run at 30 degrees inclusive when lightly hitting bone and when carving through hard wood knots. I do not baby them but I do not abuse them.

I don't strop or hone. I can get a knife back to sharp with a pocket stone in a minute flat so the inability to hone is not an issue.

I am not a big fan of the ultra high carbide steels and I use knives in 1095 VERY regularly. I have a soft spot for them. Steels like S30V, XHP and Cruwear are my favorite. I agree that marketing has a lot to do with the popularity of these steels.

Chinese knife? There are lots of quality knives with low carbide steels.
 
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Knife blade steels are subject to fashion just like women's purses or shoes or any other fashionable product. Opinions about the various steels come an go with the way those fashions develop. What was the hot item one year is vilified the next. The fashions are affected by magazine writers, internet bloggers and manufacturer marketing. Most of it adds up to less than a hill of beans. My advice is to choose knives from manufacturers you trust and let them worry about the steel type and heat treatment.
 
So, if I'm reading all this correctly it sounds like this Cliff guy really, really, really doesn't like things that are different, right?
 
kraftzion said:
Steel and carbides have a lot in common with cement and gravel. If you get the right mixture of cement and gravel your concrete is strong. But if you add to much gravel, there is not enough cement to keep the gravel in place and your concrete crumbles. Crucible even state in there own literature to avoid sharp radii with these high carbide tool steels. The very definition of a sharp radii is a knife edge. The quote"Tool steels are notch-sensitive materials. The presence of notches, undercuts, sharp radii, changes in section, or any geometric features may concentrate applied stress and exaggerate the material’s tendency to break." and the article.http://www.crucible.com/eselector/general/generalpart1.html
These steels are designed for machine operations like stamping out door panels for cars out of sheet metal. Nothing even close to the angle of a knife edge is involved. At most two 90 degree angles will pass each other in close proximity and shear the sheet metal. At 90 degrees there is enough steel to keep the carbides in place and let them do there job. By all means if you consider a 90 degree angle on a knife sharp get you some s90v(funny how they even have 90 in the name) and you can saw through manila rope or what ever floats your boat until the cows come home and never have to worry about sharpening your knife again. You can also do this with a backwards hacksaw blade by the way a LOT cheaper. But if you are like me and don't even consider it a knife until you get to 15 per side, 30 degrees included or below you are best off choosing a proper knife steel. Here is a video of what happens to high carbide steels when used as a knife compared to what I consider a proper knife steel(12c27). And this is compared to s30v which was supposedly developed as a knife steel.
Now I consider 1000 strips of dirty carpet more than enough wear resistance to suit my needs. And the thing that seems to be glossed over in all these "super steel" comparisons is that you can't hone them. You can take that 12c27 after 1000 strips cut of dirty carpet and run it across a steel for about 10 seconds and your razor edge is back. If you try to hone these "super steels" all you do is move the carbides around further weakening or destroying what is all ready a pitifully weak edge. You have to resharpen them which takes significantly more time. When you sharpen these "super steels" to any angle even approaching what I consider a knife edge what you end up with is a bunch of loose or barely hanging on carbides on the edge. And just like loose gravel in your driveway when you step on it any pressure moves them out of the way. And your razor sharp edge goes away. So I implore American knife makers to get out of the gravel, stop trying to put a square peg in a round hole and start making knives out of proper knife steels again. I shouldn't have to buy a Chinese knife to get a decent steel.
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You should change the title to "why do people suck at Sharpening high carbide steels"

I think that is one of leading problems to why everyones experience varies so widely.

First is usually just bad sharpening technique or understanding

Next is poor abrasive selection.

But YMMV

Love Super steels.

Cuts stuff very aggressively
 
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