- Joined
- Dec 6, 2007
- Messages
- 1,670
Would bar stock made of 1018 steel combine with a harder steel to make good damascus?
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is $300 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
1018 steel for damascus?
- Thread starter beemermark
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2006
- Messages
- 8,633
it all depends on the other steels propertes. but just a heads up, 1018 will not harden. it has very low carbon content %0.18 need over .45-.50 to get a useable hardness. 5160 is and amazing steel and onley .50-.60 % carbon. the problem is this, if the blades edge ends up landing on a layer of 1018 you will have a knife that wont hold any kind of edge. somthing like 1095 and A203-E works very niceley. can any one gess what maker uses these steels to make a fine dagger, he has a video out.
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2006
- Messages
- 99
Mike its C=.09 Mn=.64 Si=.34 Cr=.03 Ni=3.58 Mo .01
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2006
- Messages
- 99
Wow sometimes Im slow to catch on:foot:
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2006
- Messages
- 2,264
I used to use low-carbon steel/nickel in blade damascus mixes.
Not anymore.
I can think of no reason to do so. These materials do not enhance performance, but certainly can diminish it.
If you want strong contrast, why not use something like L-6 or 15-N-20 instead? These weld nicely with, say 1075 or 1086, and will respond well to the same heat treat.
Not anymore.
I can think of no reason to do so. These materials do not enhance performance, but certainly can diminish it.
If you want strong contrast, why not use something like L-6 or 15-N-20 instead? These weld nicely with, say 1075 or 1086, and will respond well to the same heat treat.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2005
- Messages
- 1,297
I don't believe that you should add any steel to your Damascus that you would not be willing to use as a blade all by itself. If you want to add something like nickle for contrast, you could laminate it to the sides of your steel blade to get some beautiful patterning, as Brian Lyttle and others have done so successfully.
(From Brian's website)
Upscale Hunter
Design adapted from
a well-known design of a
Hudson Bay Company Trade Knife
dating back to the 1700's;
The knives were made in Sheffield,
shipped over by the thousands,
and traded to the Indians for furs;
Tri-laminate style Damascus steel
(with high carbon steel core);
10 in. long overall;
Narwhal tusk handle
with 304 stainless steel caps
on both ends
(From Brian's website)
Upscale Hunter
Design adapted from
a well-known design of a
Hudson Bay Company Trade Knife
dating back to the 1700's;
The knives were made in Sheffield,
shipped over by the thousands,
and traded to the Indians for furs;
Tri-laminate style Damascus steel
(with high carbon steel core);
10 in. long overall;
Narwhal tusk handle
with 304 stainless steel caps
on both ends
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2003
- Messages
- 2,361
A couple of different things being discussed here, one thing will be a matter of lowered overall hardness the other will be a matter of alternating hard and soft (weak- in my opinion) layers.
When more modern man, folks who didnt have to actually work the metal to survive, began speculating as to why a person would make pattern welded blades, they came up with this asinine hard/soft layers giving us the best of both worlds nonsense; a blade that was hard and keen but unbreakable. Modern smiths in their pursuit to recreate many of the old blades included this speculation into their research and methodology, and that is too bad. When you add this to the modern obsession with blades that easily bend without cracking or breaking (the opposite of strength) you get reinforcement of many of these erroneous concepts.
Ancient pattern welding was conservation of materials and refinement of the steel. One could get hard/soft zones by working with thicker soft components and welding quickly, and in a world where alloying wasnt even a theory yet, ductile vs. brittle was all you had to work with. Well we have the benefit of around 1000 years of metallurgical advancement that is, called progress. With alloying we can now significantly increase the toughness of a steel while leaving it at the same hardness and sacrificing no strength. Folks who have dumped enough 1018 into their Damascus to drop the overall carbon below .60% have made a blade that will easily bend but is serious handicapped in edge holding and other areas involving strength of the material. I honestly believe that those blades that are maintained as proof that dumping mild steel into Damascus is a good thing, really have not been put to the test to reveal their inherent shortcomings.
As I said a couple of different things are going on here. One is carbon diffusion and the other is interference with that same process. When you dump 1018 into a billet with good hardenable steel, carbon diffusion will begin as soon as the weld is complete, and diffusion is driven by higher levels wanting to go to lower levels until equilibrium is achieved, this in not speculation on my part it is a fact of physical law. At first the low carb layers will absorb the carbon at the outsides and will maintain a soft core but as folding proceeds the layers will get much thinner and welding heat will drive the diffusion much fast. In no time at all you will have went from high carbon and low carbon layers to all medium carbon layers at best.
You can compensate for this and use lower carbon materials such as 203E if you measure out the percentages carefully and overcome the low carbon with high carbon. W2 or 1095 make good partners with such a steel because if their percentages in the billet are great enough they can lend enough carbon to the low carbon stuff and still come out with at least .6% in the end.
Dumping 1018 into your billet does not give you some mythical super strong, super flexible and hard blade, it turns all of your layers into medium carbon, unless you over compensate with the other steel. I just used 1018 in a mix 2 days ago, I wanted exclusively for fittings that would have a subtler contrast and machine like butter, but it all got thrown in my fittings drawer as I would never want to confuse it for real blade materials.
The other thing being discussed here is actually going to the real deal- hard and soft layers, something the ancients didnt despite our modern beliefs. We do this by stopping the diffusion with a barrier. Pure nickel and carbon do not like each other and no diffusion will occur at such an interface. So you can get soft layers in the middle of hard high carbon layers by slipping nickel in between. But be aware that good knife edges that hold up in use are a matter of material strength and ductile materials lack this.
I will not beat on the nickel thing too much since there are too many folks who use it in their steel and love the look of the contrast and would take exception to my suggestions about it. But I have tested the material in many ways and examined how it behaves microscopically, and let me just say this- you will not find any blades stamped with my mark that have pure nickel in them. I have a right to state my preferences.
I agree with Chris, in fact his quote sounds very familiar
I don't believe that you should add any steel to your Damascus that you would not be willing to use as a blade all by itself
When more modern man, folks who didnt have to actually work the metal to survive, began speculating as to why a person would make pattern welded blades, they came up with this asinine hard/soft layers giving us the best of both worlds nonsense; a blade that was hard and keen but unbreakable. Modern smiths in their pursuit to recreate many of the old blades included this speculation into their research and methodology, and that is too bad. When you add this to the modern obsession with blades that easily bend without cracking or breaking (the opposite of strength) you get reinforcement of many of these erroneous concepts.
Ancient pattern welding was conservation of materials and refinement of the steel. One could get hard/soft zones by working with thicker soft components and welding quickly, and in a world where alloying wasnt even a theory yet, ductile vs. brittle was all you had to work with. Well we have the benefit of around 1000 years of metallurgical advancement that is, called progress. With alloying we can now significantly increase the toughness of a steel while leaving it at the same hardness and sacrificing no strength. Folks who have dumped enough 1018 into their Damascus to drop the overall carbon below .60% have made a blade that will easily bend but is serious handicapped in edge holding and other areas involving strength of the material. I honestly believe that those blades that are maintained as proof that dumping mild steel into Damascus is a good thing, really have not been put to the test to reveal their inherent shortcomings.
As I said a couple of different things are going on here. One is carbon diffusion and the other is interference with that same process. When you dump 1018 into a billet with good hardenable steel, carbon diffusion will begin as soon as the weld is complete, and diffusion is driven by higher levels wanting to go to lower levels until equilibrium is achieved, this in not speculation on my part it is a fact of physical law. At first the low carb layers will absorb the carbon at the outsides and will maintain a soft core but as folding proceeds the layers will get much thinner and welding heat will drive the diffusion much fast. In no time at all you will have went from high carbon and low carbon layers to all medium carbon layers at best.
You can compensate for this and use lower carbon materials such as 203E if you measure out the percentages carefully and overcome the low carbon with high carbon. W2 or 1095 make good partners with such a steel because if their percentages in the billet are great enough they can lend enough carbon to the low carbon stuff and still come out with at least .6% in the end.
Dumping 1018 into your billet does not give you some mythical super strong, super flexible and hard blade, it turns all of your layers into medium carbon, unless you over compensate with the other steel. I just used 1018 in a mix 2 days ago, I wanted exclusively for fittings that would have a subtler contrast and machine like butter, but it all got thrown in my fittings drawer as I would never want to confuse it for real blade materials.
The other thing being discussed here is actually going to the real deal- hard and soft layers, something the ancients didnt despite our modern beliefs. We do this by stopping the diffusion with a barrier. Pure nickel and carbon do not like each other and no diffusion will occur at such an interface. So you can get soft layers in the middle of hard high carbon layers by slipping nickel in between. But be aware that good knife edges that hold up in use are a matter of material strength and ductile materials lack this.
I will not beat on the nickel thing too much since there are too many folks who use it in their steel and love the look of the contrast and would take exception to my suggestions about it. But I have tested the material in many ways and examined how it behaves microscopically, and let me just say this- you will not find any blades stamped with my mark that have pure nickel in them. I have a right to state my preferences.
I agree with Chris, in fact his quote sounds very familiar
I don't believe that you should add any steel to your Damascus that you would not be willing to use as a blade all by itself
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2006
- Messages
- 3,238
Following Kevin's advice I have been using a 1084/L6 mix for my damascus (now that I have some of Aldo's 1095 I'll be experimenting with that too) and it welds up beautifully, etches beautifully, and forges nicely. My understanding of how the whole process works (Kevin and Mete correct me please if I'm wrong) is that all else being equal higher carbon content lowers your forging/welding temperature, so a higher carbon content simple alloy will be easier to weld, also if I remember Kevin's lecture correctly you ideally want both of your steels to have the same heat treat characteristics. I certainly wouldn't want to have an air hardening steel and a water hardening steel together, as I'd have to choose between the evils of cracking and not hardening 
-Page
-Page
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2002
- Messages
- 12,297
I can't say it any better than Kevin but since Joe mentioned my name 
Yes you can use 1018 in damascus but (like Kevin said) I would only add 15 - 20% 1018 to 80 -85% carbon steel, preferably a 1% carbon steel.
1084/15n20 is my preferred mix but clean wrought iron, 203E and 1018 will give a different look and at the right % will make a good blade.
The W2/wrought iron mix I do is 15% iron and 85% W2 and at 3000 to over 5000 layers, it's pretty cool stuff. I do this for hamon development and like the look.
It would be very boring if everyone used the same mix and all pattern welded material looked the same
Yes you can use 1018 in damascus but (like Kevin said) I would only add 15 - 20% 1018 to 80 -85% carbon steel, preferably a 1% carbon steel.
1084/15n20 is my preferred mix but clean wrought iron, 203E and 1018 will give a different look and at the right % will make a good blade.
The W2/wrought iron mix I do is 15% iron and 85% W2 and at 3000 to over 5000 layers, it's pretty cool stuff. I do this for hamon development and like the look.
It would be very boring if everyone used the same mix and all pattern welded material looked the same
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2003
- Messages
- 2,361
1084/15n20 is a fantastic mix:thumbup:. It meets every need really well. It welds like it is glue or was meant to be together, it gets good and hard and cuts like crazy, and it gives a most beautiful contrast that makes its patterning a joy to behold. My O1/L6 can out perform my 1084/15n20 but at the expense of being a pain in the @## to weld and work properly, while 1084/15n20 is a breeze to work with giving no troubles at all.
The trick to mixing carbon contents is to remember the numbers. I go by weight percentage in the billet. In my O1/L6 it is 60% to 40 %. .9% carbon mutliplied by the percentage - .9 x .6 = .54% carbon. For the L6 it is .4 x .75 = .3% adding those two toghether give me a total carbon content of .84% which I am very happy with.
If I wanted to mix 1018 with O1 for some reason. I would have to have at least do it on a 60/40 mix to obtain .6% carbon. I draw the line in any steel I would use for a blade at .6% carbon because it is not until this point that you start to approach maximum martensite hardness due to carbon content. .8% is the point at which little is gain by adding more, but below .6% things things go down hill too quickly for my tastes. one also needs to remember that if there is alloying that will lock up carbon they will need to go a little higher than .6% as this is the line with simple carbon alloys.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2005
- Messages
- 1,297
I agree with Chris, in fact his quote sounds very familiar
Kevin, although you have certainly told me essentially the same thing, I believe I first picked up that tip from Tim Zowada. You didn't start coming to Ashokan until later.
Also, in case there was any confusion, the reason I approve of the way that Brian Lyttle uses nickel (not that he needs my approval) is because he only uses it for decoration on the sides of the blade. He employs a high carbon steel core so that the blade will actually cut.
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2003
- Messages
- 2,361
... I believe I first picked up that tip from Tim Zowada. You didn't start coming to Ashokan until later.
I said it sounded familiar, I didn't say where it came from
I wouldn't hesitate approving of most things that Brian does, he is one of the finest knifemakers working today. True, he doesn't need any approval, but I would like to see him get a little more recognition, you can tell how good he is by how little you see written about him. It is odd that on my list of top makers in the world only one or two have had any articles about them in recent memory. Yet many of the same names I do see, continue to impress me with their consistency in mediocrity.
You would see a laminated nickel blade like what Brian does come out of my shop except that I like the look the alloys I work with so why bother with the extra expense and hassle? I used to offer more mokume on my work but found that many of the public liked my pattern welded fittings as much as I do and I have all kinds of it laying around waiting to be used, so practicality tells me what to do
By the way, Chris, I finally got that PME scope! It is definitely a metallographic tool with all kinds of photographic bells and whistles that would be unused with normal microscopy. When it comes to just looking at stuff, any of my other (cheaper) scopes would do the exact same job.
If you are still looking at used Olympus go with an MG or an MF and save yourself some serious dough unless you want to publish micrographs.