1084...So is canola oil any good , or what??

R

R.C.Reichert

Joined
Jul 26, 2008
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So I was watching one of Larin's videos on YouTube (Knife Steel Nerds) where he tested different quenchants including canola oil to see what worked best for different types of steels. Personally, I get excellent results using canola, but according to his findings in the video, canola was basically shite for 1084. All the literature I've read both on here and elsewhere says canola works well for 1084, but his results say no, so then what is it??? All of my 1084 knives come out of the canola quench as hard as glass and they perform well, so what gives? I'm wondering if maybe he just did not preheat the canola to 120°F beforehand, or something because my results with it are not jiving with his. Any thoughts, or experience with this?

Thanks!
 
DevinT said:
How are you measuring your results?

Hoss
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I use a file to check that the blade got hard after the quench. My thoughts are that it it because he was using full thickness 1/4" steel and my blades are always ground thin before heat treat. His oil was also preheated as is mine. I know that using a file is not "scientific", but even after removing any decarb, my blades are always so hard that a file will skate over them.
 
R.C.Reichert said:
I use a file to check that the blade got hard after the quench. My thoughts are that it it because he was using full thickness 1/4" steel and my blades are always ground thin before heat treat. His oil was also preheated as is mine. I know that using a file is not "scientific", but even after removing any decarb, my blades are always so hard that a file will skate over them.
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He also found that 1/8 inch 1084 did not fully harden in canola oil.

Hoss
 
R.C.Reichert said:
I use a file to check that the blade got hard after the quench. My thoughts are that it it because he was using full thickness 1/4" steel and my blades are always ground thin before heat treat. His oil was also preheated as is mine. I know that using a file is not "scientific", but even after removing any decarb, my blades are always so hard that a file will skate over them.
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Are you using a forge or a furnace to heat treat?

Hoss
 
Larrin responded to me saying that he was using full thickness steel, so if my bevels are thin (the way I do it) is probably why they are getting hard. It's just that literally all the literature both on here and elsewhere throughout the years has told me that 1084 works well with warm canola.🤷
 
Please understand that Larrin did not set out to prove that canola oil is not a good quench oil. There has been a lot of conflicting information out there about quench oils. He was surprised at the results of the testing.

If you are looking for support for your heat treating there will be members jump on here and do that.

Money is usually a factor in deciding to use low tech equipment and materials for heat treating.

If you are getting adequate results with 1084 quenched in canola oil, just imagine what you can do with better alloys, equipment and proper quench oils.

The most important thing for good heat treating is correct austenitizing temperature, second most important thing is proper quenching.

I highly recommend that you try and get a good furnace, some parks 50, some liquid nitrogen, a rockwell tester, do more research, do more testing etc.

Hoss
 
R.C.Reichert said:
Larrin responded to me saying that he was using full thickness steel, so if my bevels are thin (the way I do it) is probably why they are getting hard. It's just that literally all the literature both on here and elsewhere throughout the years has told me that 1084 works well with warm canola.🤷
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There’s more than one way to skin a cat. I’ve used canola oil in the past and had mixed results, so I ended up moving on to Parks 50.
 
DevinT said:
Please understand that Larrin did not set out to prove that canola oil is not a good quench oil. There has been a lot of conflicting information out there about quench oils. He was surprised at the results of the testing.

If you are looking for support for your heat treating there will be members jump on here and do that.

Money is usually a factor in deciding to use low tech equipment and materials for heat treating.

If you are getting adequate results with 1084 quenched in canola oil, just imagine what you can do with better alloys, equipment and proper quench oils.

The most important thing for good heat treating is correct austenitizing temperature, second most important thing is proper quenching.

I highly recommend that you try and get a good furnace, some parks 50, some liquid nitrogen, a rockwell tester, do more research, do more testing etc.

Hoss
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I appreciate the advice. I am making 18th century reproductions and my goal is to make them as close to how they would have originally been made in the 18th century. That means not going high tech with everything. I suppose I can/will invest in some Parks 50, but everything else is going to be done the old way and tested rigorously in the field, not in a lab.
 
R.C.Reichert said:
I appreciate the advice. I am making 18th century reproductions and my goal is to make them as close to how they would have originally been made in the 18th century. That means not going high tech with everything. I suppose I can/will invest in some Parks 50, but everything else is going to be done the old way and tested rigorously in the field, not in a lab.
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Good luck 👍
 
R.C.Reichert said:
appreciate the advice. I am making 18th century reproductions and my goal is to make them as close to how they would have originally been made in the 18th century.
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So I hope/assume you are doing your quenching at night, on a new moon or in a dark shop with only enough light to see what you are doing.

And no, I'm not kidding here. I can/will explain if need be.
 
R.C.Reichert said:
Well so far, I get multiple repeat customers and they all say my knives are excellent and hold a great edge. If something works...
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Every knife maker gives this same answer as to why their heat treatment must be good. At best, you have an adequate heat treatment.

Hoss
 
DevinT said:
Every knife maker gives this same answer as to why their heat treatment must be good. At best, you have an adequate heat treatment.

Hoss
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I much appreciate the criticism. I will take everything into consideration and may have to change my ways of doing things. I am really only looking for solid facts and you have delivered only that. Thank you!
 
weo said:
So I hope/assume you are doing your quenching at night, on a new moon or in a dark shop with only enough light to see what you are doing.

And no, I'm not kidding here. I can/will explain if need be.
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I make no claim that my knives will shave the nut hairs off of a chipmunk, or chop through a concrete wall, but they will perform adequately in the field for their intended purpose, or your money back.
 
Some of my very early knives were 1084 quenched in canola, same thing pre ground before quench and preheated oil, everything appeared to be fine but one of the knives I used every day at my day job in construction and I really abused it, using it like a chisel to split wood if I needed to notch a decking board, using it to cut open concrete bags, ect. So the knife ended up being sharpened a lot and I would use a belt sharpener to quickly put an edge back. After about 6-8 months of this the knife had shrunk in width by about 1/4” so the blade was narrower and as I got further into the blade it went from nice and hard to softer but still hard and then eventually completely soft. This was when I was first learning and wasn’t selling any knives thank goodness but it was enough of a real world test that well before Larrins study I decided that canola was not the best option for me and I bought some commercial oil. If you really didn’t want to go that route what would possibly be more historically accurate would be using 1050 and quenching in water.
 
Joshua Fisher said:
Some of my very early knives were 1084 quenched in canola, same thing pre ground before quench and preheated oil, everything appeared to be fine but one of the knives I used every day at my day job in construction and I really abused it, using it like a chisel to split wood if I needed to notch a decking board, using it to cut open concrete bags, ect. So the knife ended up being sharpened a lot and I would use a belt sharpener to quickly put an edge back. After about 6-8 months of this the knife had shrunk in width by about 1/4” so the blade was narrower and as I got further into the blade it went from nice and hard to softer but still hard and then eventually completely soft. This was when I was first learning and wasn’t selling any knives thank goodness but it was enough of a real world test that well before Larrins study I decided that canola was not the best option for me and I bought some commercial oil. If you really didn’t want to go that route what would possibly be more historically accurate would be using 1050 and quenching in water.
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Thanks! I have some Parks 50 on my order list. I don't have a problem switching things up if it's for the better. 👍 And no...I don't quench only on a full moon and pointing magnetic north, lol. I just like doing things the traditional way in a forge with a simple set-up.
 
I might have to go with the Houghton-Quench K due to the limited availability of Parks 50 in Canada, but it's supposed to be the equivalent.
 
R.C.Reichert said:
And no...I don't quench only on a full moon and pointing magnetic north, lol.
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I don't think there's any practical reason for trying to orient to magnetic north or anywhere. But the reason for the new moon/dark forge was so that the smith could see the phase transformation (decalecence or recalecence) and then know when to quench.
 
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