1095 vs 15N20, all things being unequal.

jdm61

itinerant metal pounder
Joined
Aug 12, 2005
Messages
47,357
A lot of the production and "specialty cutlery" companies have settled on plain old 1095 for their somewhat reasonably priced "hard use" outdoor, tactical, etc. knives. A lot of those folks leave that steel pretty soft by my standards in order to make it "tougher." Without getting into discussions about various HT methods, good or bad, how do you think that 15N20 at higher hardness like 61Rc would compare in performance to 1095 which I will GENEROUSLY assign a hardness value of say 57-58Rc? Assume best HT methods for both, which is also a generous assumption considering the videos of their "proprietary" HT method that I have seen from at least one tactical knife company using 1095. We know that 15N20 is tough stuff to start with because of the 2% nickel, but how do you guys think that it would compare in edge retention because of the significantly higher hardness? i know that Sword uses 15N20 for their thin and ugly but tough little blades, but they leave it damn soft.
Just so we have all of the info, I am talking about thin bushcraft, etc style blades because 15N20 is only available in thicknesses up to .130 at this time. Also, using Aldo comparison shopping, it is about 25% more expensive than 1095, which, on say a standard Kephart, would add up to about 90 cents per blade blank.
 
Last edited:
A lot of the production and "specialty cutlery" companies have settled on plain old 1095 for their somewhat reasonably priced "hard use" outdoor, tactical, etc. knives. A lot of those folks leave that steel pretty soft by my standards in order to make it "tougher." Without getting into discussions about various HT methods, good or bad, how do you think that 15N20 at higher hardness like 61Rc would compare in performance to 1095 which I will GENEROUSLY assign a hardness value of say 57-58Rc? Assume best HT methods for both, which is also a generous assumption considering the videos of their "proprietary" HT method that I have seen from at least one tactical knife company using 1095. We know that 15N20 is tough stuff to start with because of the 2% nickel, but how do you guys think that it would compare in edge retention because of the significantly higher hardness? i know that Sword uses 15N20 for their thin and ugly but tough little blades, but they leave it damn soft.
Just so we have all of the info, I am talking about thin bushcraft, etc style blades because 15N20 is only available in thicknesses up to .130 at this time. Also, using Aldo comparison shopping, it is about 25% more expensive than 1095, which, on say a standard Kephart, would add up to about 90 cents per blade blank.

I find well treated 15n20 at Rc62 to perform about the same as O1 at Rc60. O1 will outperform 1095 hands down. I've never compared 15n20 to 1095 with equal hardness though. 15n20 wears about 20% faster than W2 or 52100, hardness being equal at Rc62. I've got a couple testers in 8670 out there from AKS and it's too early to tell, but it seems to be stable at Rc63 and wears about the same as 15n20, maybe a bit better. It's available in thicker stock than 15n20.

For max performance, austentize at 1460 to 1475. Nickel reduces austenitizing temp. 5-10min soak, quench in P50 or DT-48 and performance will surprise you. It will even get a better hamon than 1084. (Aldo's stock has lower manganese than the used bandsaw blades.)

I think 15n20 is one of the most underrated steels out there.
 
Last edited:
I find well treated 15n20 at Rc62 to perform about the same as O1 at Rc60. O1 will outperform 1095 hands down. I've never compared 15n20 to 1095 with equal hardness though. 15n20 wears about 20% faster than W2 or 52100, hardness being equal at Rc62. I've got a couple testers in 8670 out there from AKS and it's too early to tell, but it seems to be stable at Rc63 and wears about the same as 15n20, maybe a bit better. It's available in thicker stock than 15n20.

For max performance, austentize at 1460 to 1475. Nickel reduces austenitizing temp. 5-10min soak, quench in P50 or DT-48 and performance will surprise you. It will even get a better hamon than 1084. (Aldo's stock has lower manganese than the used bandsaw blades.)

I think 15n20 is one of the most underrated steels out there.
Yeah, O1 has that secret blend of 11 abrasion resistant herbs and spices to help it out. ;) So do you think that 60-62Rc 15N20 would outperform the typical "commercial" 1095 in edge holding and be at least equal or even better in the toughness department? You see some companies doing what might appear to us to be silly things for the sake of "improved toughness', like leaving 5160 at 53Rc. On the other hand, you see folks like us playing around with crazy things like 15N20 or AEB-L machetes hardened to like 60Rc+. I wonder how much of what some of these companies do is based on bad/outdated info and how much on laziness/cost issues?
 
Yeah, O1 has that secret blend of 11 abrasion resistant herbs and spices to help it out. ;) So do you think that 60-62Rc 15N20 would outperform the typical "commercial" 1095 in edge holding and be at least equal or even better in the toughness department? You see some companies doing what might appear to us to be silly things for the sake of "improved toughness', like leaving 5160 at 53Rc. On the other hand, you see folks like us playing around with crazy things like 15N20 or AEB-L machetes hardened to like 60Rc+. I wonder how much of what some of these companies do is based on bad/outdated info and how much on laziness/cost issues?

I think a broken blade looks worse to a company than a blade that is very easy to sharpen. we tailor our knives to our customers, where mass produced knives go to the lowest common denominator. I think the main reason is that these soft knives cost a lot less to grind and finish.

15n20 at Rc60/61 is very tough, like bend to 90deg tough. One customer hammered a skinner through rib cages and split a pelvis with one of my earlier testers. These knives have held an edge better than any commercial knife I have owned, but they were all pretty cheap knives.

The only way to know for sure is to test it!
 
I heard at Blade Show that 15N20 is going to be available in thicker stock at some point down the road.
 
I heard at Blade Show that 15N20 is going to be available in thicker stock at some point down the road.
James, our friend-in-the-business Jeff Sinko who used to be with B-U/Voestalpine Strip before he moved over to Bestar said that the new Austrian mill can roll the 15N20 to the same thicknesses as the new thicker AEB-L. At this point, i think that they are just trying to figure out what the demand might be.
 
Last edited:
Out of curiosity, what hardness do y'all get out of 15N20 out of the quench and what temps do you temper at to get Rc 61-62? I've only seen the tempering graph posted by Alpha Knife Supply.
 
1095 at 57-58 is pretty mediocre, but that's similar to leaving W2 or Hitachi White that soft. Where it shines, when it's a good melt, like Hitachi White, W2, and other high, simple carbon steels, is at high hardness, and with really fine grinds.

Although comparing any steels, without any specifics on HT recipe, especially alloys like O-1, is pretty fruitless. O-1 can do some insane stuff, with some highly complicated, (non industry spec) and specialized HT. I'm sure 15n20 can also, but it shines in its toughness to cost to available form ratio, not fine edge stability.


You want something that can chop through antler and still have a "good" edge? Both 15n20 and O-1 can do that with targeted HT, and higher than expect RC. However, IMO, neither will have the kind of edge a zero ground, super thin blade of Hitachi White, old school W-2, or top shelf 1095 at 62-63 RC with refined grain prioritized. On the other hand, those examples will be much less tough, which of course, can be accommodated for, by changing thickness, taper, and edge geometry, you're still prioritizing edge acuteness over edge holding though.

15n20 seems to fill a big niche in it's primary market, because it offers good toughness to cost ratio. The added nickel comes at a premium, but it's minute compared to specialty super tough steels, when you're talking dozens of ft per blade, where you want them to break or wear out at roughly equal rates. That's the trick right? These blades are rarely reground because it's impractical, and they're never patched back together for the same reason, and it makes more sense economically, to simply replace them. So when they get too dull, they break, at about the right time they're becoming problematic in the cut.

It's not that 15n20 is the toughest, or the sharpest, or holds the best edge. It's that it has the best performance, to cost ratio, in a highly specific scenario.


The reason many production outfits use 1095 at lower hardness is because a) it's the cheapest high carbon steel on the market, in almost all cases. It can often be had in volume for $1.50 a lb (I've never paid more than $2lb for it, where 15n20 is almost always more than double this directly from uddeholm/volstepine), and it has a pretty narrow spec range, so you can usually assume that it's decent quality regardless of the provider if it meets spec and has certs. and b) they leave it at crap hardness because of the market's seeming demand of insane "no questions asked" warranties, and that has to accommodate the lowest common denominator. Even still, it gives decent performance, and any outfit can HT it with acceptable if mediocre results.


15n20 even at wholesale rates costs at least double, with a surcharge for nickel based on the current price of nickel, the specific brand name is only available from one place, although there are equivalents. It's also more difficult to process in many cases, even if you waterjet, it's tougher on tooling, belts, whatever.

All that of course makes you think that it's "obviously better", but once you factor the extra cost, the question is; is it more profitable to use than some high alloy carbon or stainless, that can give much better performance, without much if any added cost? Steel cost itself being typically secondary to tooling and consumables, and uddeholm being particularly resilient toward offering competitive pricing.





Personally, I have to say, as someone that uses a thousand lbs of 15n20 a year making damascus now, that I don't particularly see the appeal. For mono carbon, I greatly prefer W2, and if I want something tougher, or with insane wear resistance, and I'm going to deal with the added difficulty, I'd prefer something that associates a premium, such as some of the super stainlesses, that can be had in a wider variety of thicknesses, from a company that isn't a pain in the ass to do business with. 15n20 can't be beat for damascus with 1075, 1084, 1095, W2, or any other simple carbon steel in that spec range, but the nickel doesn't add much for me personally, other than acid resistance. Let's remember it's basically just 1075 with ~2% nickel, nothing crazy, and a pretty textbook alloy if you consider how precisely targeted it was from a market penetration standpoint. Ultimately though I think "toughness" is overblown in many cases, except when you're talking about super alloys which you can leverage it's toughness into insane geometry and dimensions, which of course ironically, is almost never the case when any, including 15n20 are applied, it's simply there for piece of mind in a sharpened crowbar that would already survive a directly nuclear strike even if were made from chinese junk steel.



All in all, we're still talking in vague, esoteric terms, regardless. Ultimately the question is; "What's the best steel and HT for the type of, and way I make knives" or "How can I change the way and style I make knives, to be optimal for the type of steel I want to use" Anything else is just pissing in the wind.


Edit: Just want to add, it probably sounds like I'm saying that I don't favor 15n20, which is absolutely not the case. It's great steel for what it is, and it fills a very important niche for many of us, which is of course residual to it's original industry niche. I just don't find it that spectacular as a mono-steel choice personally, considering the alternatives, that I can get, when I compare the difference in wholesale cost vs the potential return. Hope that makes sense, and nobody that loves 15n20 as mono takes offense. ;)
 
Last edited:
Out of curiosity, what hardness do y'all get out of 15N20 out of the quench and what temps do you temper at to get Rc 61-62? I've only seen the tempering graph posted by Alpha Knife Supply.

I'm getting g Rc66 out of quench consistently. I temper at 300, test, and walk up as needed. I've got three sources of 15n20, and I mixed them up, so each tempers slightly differently. I haven't had to go above 375 to get Rc60, and usually aim for Rc62. If someone is hard on knives, I'll go Rc60/61.
 
1095 at 57-58 is pretty mediocre, but that's similar to leaving W2 or Hitachi White that soft. Where it shines, when it's a good melt, like Hitachi White, W2, and other high, simple carbon steels, is at high hardness, and with really fine grinds.

Although comparing any steels, without any specifics on HT recipe, especially alloys like O-1, is pretty fruitless. O-1 can do some insane stuff, with some highly complicated, (non industry spec) and specialized HT. I'm sure 15n20 can also, but it shines in its toughness to cost to available form ratio, not fine edge stability.


You want something that can chop through antler and still have a "good" edge? Both 15n20 and O-1 can do that with targeted HT, and higher than expect RC. However, IMO, neither will have the kind of edge a zero ground, super thin blade of Hitachi White, old school W-2, or top shelf 1095 at 62-63 RC with refined grain prioritized. On the other hand, those examples will be much less tough, which of course, can be accommodated for, by changing thickness, taper, and edge geometry, you're still prioritizing edge acuteness over edge holding though.

15n20 seems to fill a big niche in it's primary market, because it offers good toughness to cost ratio. The added nickel comes at a premium, but it's minute compared to specialty super tough steels, when you're talking dozens of ft per blade, where you want them to break or wear out at roughly equal rates. That's the trick right? These blades are rarely reground because it's impractical, and they're never patched back together for the same reason, and it makes more sense economically, to simply replace them. So when they get too dull, they break, at about the right time they're becoming problematic in the cut.

It's not that 15n20 is the toughest, or the sharpest, or holds the best edge. It's that it has the best performance, to cost ratio, in a highly specific scenario.


The reason many production outfits use 1095 at lower hardness is because a) it's the cheapest high carbon steel on the market, in almost all cases. It can often be had in volume for $1.50 a lb (I've never paid more than $2lb for it, where 15n20 is almost always more than double this directly from uddeholm/volstepine), and it has a pretty narrow spec range, so you can usually assume that it's decent quality regardless of the provider if it meets spec and has certs. and b) they leave it at crap hardness because of the market's seeming demand of insane "no questions asked" warranties, and that has to accommodate the lowest common denominator. Even still, it gives decent performance, and any outfit can HT it with acceptable if mediocre results.


15n20 even at wholesale rates costs at least double, with a surcharge for nickel based on the current price of nickel, the specific brand name is only available from one place, although there are equivalents. It's also more difficult to process in many cases, even if you waterjet, it's tougher on tooling, belts, whatever.

All that of course makes you think that it's "obviously better", but once you factor the extra cost, the question is; is it more profitable to use than some high alloy carbon or stainless, that can give much better performance, without much if any added cost? Steel cost itself being typically secondary to tooling and consumables, and uddeholm being particularly resilient toward offering competitive pricing.





Personally, I have to say, as someone that uses a thousand lbs of 15n20 a year making damascus now, that I don't particularly see the appeal. For mono carbon, I greatly prefer W2, and if I want something tougher, or with insane wear resistance, and I'm going to deal with the added difficulty, I'd prefer something that associates a premium, such as some of the super stainlesses, that can be had in a wider variety of thicknesses, from a company that isn't a pain in the ass to do business with. 15n20 can't be beat for damascus with 1075, 1084, 1095, W2, or any other simple carbon steel in that spec range, but the nickel doesn't add much for me personally, other than acid resistance. Let's remember it's basically just 1075 with ~2% nickel, nothing crazy, and a pretty textbook alloy if you consider how precisely targeted it was from a market penetration standpoint. Ultimately though I think "toughness" is overblown in many cases, except when you're talking about super alloys which you can leverage it's toughness into insane geometry and dimensions, which of course ironically, is almost never the case when any, including 15n20 are applied, it's simply there for piece of mind in a sharpened crowbar that would already survive a directly nuclear strike even if were made from chinese junk steel.



All in all, we're still talking in vague, esoteric terms, regardless. Ultimately the question is; "What's the best steel and HT for the type of, and way I make knives" or "How can I change the way and style I make knives, to be optimal for the type of steel I want to use" Anything else is just pissing in the wind.


Edit: Just want to add, it probably sounds like I'm saying that I don't favor 15n20, which is absolutely not the case. It's great steel for what it is, and it fills a very important niche for many of us, which is of course residual to it's original industry niche. I just don't find it that spectacular as a mono-steel choice personally, considering the alternatives, that I can get, when I compare the difference in wholesale cost vs the potential return. Hope that makes sense, and nobody that loves 15n20 as mono takes offense. ;)


I agree with everything you are saying. My observation is that 15n20 can't do as well as W2, O1, or 52100. However, I don't need to thermal cycle 15n20, saving time and resources. It's easy on belts and abrasives, and tolerates higher hardness better than 1084/1075. It's tougher than 1095. I can charge less than I would with tool steels, and get better than expected performance. Of course other steels can vastly outperform it, but I can keep prices down and send a great knife out. It's like non stainless aeb-l.

On the other hand z-wear takes me 9h to heat treat, requires cryo, (my process, optional for others) and will kill abrasives like crazy. Will it perform better? Of course, but that knife costs at least double, all else being equal.
 
I was talking about 15N20 in the "cheap" knife market. I typically use Don Hanson's W2, CruForgeV, CPM 3V, AEB-L and the odd orphan piece of 115W8 for monosteel blades and1084/15N20 for damascus. I would also point out than some guys who have made kitchen knives with 15N20 might dispute your point about fine edge stability. Another slightly more expensive steel that might be good for that "cheap" market would be "low austenized" 52100. It is priced in the same range as 15N20. Of course, it requires a fair degree of care in the HT process, so that probably eliminates it from consideration by some of these aforementioned manufacturers. The reason i said "all things being unequal" is that these companies are not going to stay up late at night worrying about buying super clean 1095 or how to optimize their HT to get it where it belongs which is at or somewhere north of 60Rc;)
1095 at 57-58 is pretty mediocre, but that's similar to leaving W2 or Hitachi White that soft. Where it shines, when it's a good melt, like Hitachi White, W2, and other high, simple carbon steels, is at high hardness, and with really fine grinds.

Although comparing any steels, without any specifics on HT recipe, especially alloys like O-1, is pretty fruitless. O-1 can do some insane stuff, with some highly complicated, (non industry spec) and specialized HT. I'm sure 15n20 can also, but it shines in its toughness to cost to available form ratio, not fine edge stability.


You want something that can chop through antler and still have a "good" edge? Both 15n20 and O-1 can do that with targeted HT, and higher than expect RC. However, IMO, neither will have the kind of edge a zero ground, super thin blade of Hitachi White, old school W-2, or top shelf 1095 at 62-63 RC with refined grain prioritized. On the other hand, those examples will be much less tough, which of course, can be accommodated for, by changing thickness, taper, and edge geometry, you're still prioritizing edge acuteness over edge holding though.

15n20 seems to fill a big niche in it's primary market, because it offers good toughness to cost ratio. The added nickel comes at a premium, but it's minute compared to specialty super tough steels, when you're talking dozens of ft per blade, where you want them to break or wear out at roughly equal rates. That's the trick right? These blades are rarely reground because it's impractical, and they're never patched back together for the same reason, and it makes more sense economically, to simply replace them. So when they get too dull, they break, at about the right time they're becoming problematic in the cut.

It's not that 15n20 is the toughest, or the sharpest, or holds the best edge. It's that it has the best performance, to cost ratio, in a highly specific scenario.


The reason many production outfits use 1095 at lower hardness is because a) it's the cheapest high carbon steel on the market, in almost all cases. It can often be had in volume for $1.50 a lb (I've never paid more than $2lb for it, where 15n20 is almost always more than double this directly from uddeholm/volstepine), and it has a pretty narrow spec range, so you can usually assume that it's decent quality regardless of the provider if it meets spec and has certs. and b) they leave it at crap hardness because of the market's seeming demand of insane "no questions asked" warranties, and that has to accommodate the lowest common denominator. Even still, it gives decent performance, and any outfit can HT it with acceptable if mediocre results.


15n20 even at wholesale rates costs at least double, with a surcharge for nickel based on the current price of nickel, the specific brand name is only available from one place, although there are equivalents. It's also more difficult to process in many cases, even if you waterjet, it's tougher on tooling, belts, whatever.

All that of course makes you think that it's "obviously better", but once you factor the extra cost, the question is; is it more profitable to use than some high alloy carbon or stainless, that can give much better performance, without much if any added cost? Steel cost itself being typically secondary to tooling and consumables, and uddeholm being particularly resilient toward offering competitive pricing.





Personally, I have to say, as someone that uses a thousand lbs of 15n20 a year making damascus now, that I don't particularly see the appeal. For mono carbon, I greatly prefer W2, and if I want something tougher, or with insane wear resistance, and I'm going to deal with the added difficulty, I'd prefer something that associates a premium, such as some of the super stainlesses, that can be had in a wider variety of thicknesses, from a company that isn't a pain in the ass to do business with. 15n20 can't be beat for damascus with 1075, 1084, 1095, W2, or any other simple carbon steel in that spec range, but the nickel doesn't add much for me personally, other than acid resistance. Let's remember it's basically just 1075 with ~2% nickel, nothing crazy, and a pretty textbook alloy if you consider how precisely targeted it was from a market penetration standpoint. Ultimately though I think "toughness" is overblown in many cases, except when you're talking about super alloys which you can leverage it's toughness into insane geometry and dimensions, which of course ironically, is almost never the case when any, including 15n20 are applied, it's simply there for piece of mind in a sharpened crowbar that would already survive a directly nuclear strike even if were made from chinese junk steel.



All in all, we're still talking in vague, esoteric terms, regardless. Ultimately the question is; "What's the best steel and HT for the type of, and way I make knives" or "How can I change the way and style I make knives, to be optimal for the type of steel I want to use" Anything else is just pissing in the wind.


Edit: Just want to add, it probably sounds like I'm saying that I don't favor 15n20, which is absolutely not the case. It's great steel for what it is, and it fills a very important niche for many of us, which is of course residual to it's original industry niche. I just don't find it that spectacular as a mono-steel choice personally, considering the alternatives, that I can get, when I compare the difference in wholesale cost vs the potential return. Hope that makes sense, and nobody that loves 15n20 as mono takes offense. ;)
 
I was talking about 15N20 in the "cheap" knife market. I typically use Don Hanson's W2, CruForgeV, CPM 3V, AEB-L and the odd orphan piece of 115W8 for monosteel blades and1084/15N20 for damascus. I would also point out than some guys who have made kitchen knives with 15N20 might dispute your point about fine edge stability. Another slightly more expensive steel that might be good for that "cheap" market would be "low austenized" 52100. It is priced in the same range as 15N20. Of course, it requires a fair degree of care in the HT process, so that probably eliminates it from consideration by some of these aforementioned manufacturers. The reason i said "all things being unequal" is that these companies are not going to stay up late at night worrying about buying super clean 1095 or how to optimize their HT to get it where it belongs which is at or somewhere north of 60Rc;)

Re: bolded: Yup. Pretty much the same performance as aeb-l. I sold one to a line chef with 0.005" at the edge, 10dps used daily 8h/day. It's at Rc62. It was his first custom, and he liked the idea of the toughness the nickel gives. He was worried as he heard high end knives can be brittle. No chipping, and he goes 6 months between sharpenings. He feels no need to upgrade to a better steel. 15n20 develops a wonderful patina too.
 
Re: bolded: Yup. Pretty much the same performance as aeb-l. I sold one to a line chef with 0.005" at the edge, 10dps used daily 8h/day. It's at Rc62. It was his first custom, and he liked the idea of the toughness the nickel gives. He was worried as he heard high end knives can be brittle. No chipping, and he goes 6 months between sharpenings. He feels no need to upgrade to a better steel. 15n20 develops a wonderful patina too.
I was thinking about my comment re 52100 and it occurred to me that the one problem with that steel in a "production' setting is that, unless things have changed recent time, thin flat sections of 52100 are generally only available from speciality suppliers at higher prices than "commodity" flat steels like 15N20.
 
I was thinking about my comment re 52100 and it occurred to me that the one problem with that steel in a "production' setting is that, unless things have changed recent time, thin flat sections of 52100 are generally only available from speciality suppliers at higher prices than "commodity" flat steels like 15N20.


Bang for the buck, 15n20 is hard to beat especially if heat treat is dialled. I'd use it over 1084 any day. If you want better, it's time to invest in better heat treat equipment (not you, just a general comment.) other steels need more precision in temps. 15n20, with minimal equipment is heat to non magnetic, go one shade brighter, and quench in fast oil. Try to get 3-5 min soak, but I like 10 in the kiln.
 
Bang for the buck, 15n20 is hard to beat especially if heat treat is dialled. I'd use it over 1084 any day. If you want better, it's time to invest in better heat treat equipment (not you, just a general comment.) other steels need more precision in temps. 15n20, with minimal equipment is heat to non magnetic, go one shade brighter, and quench in fast oil. Try to get 3-5 min soak, but I like 10 in the kiln.
Yeah, bang for the buck is a big factor. 15N20 is clean in its composition and also clean finished. If you look at A2 from the same source, it is only about 33% more but that is scaly bar. It is like double if ground clean of scale and decarb, at least for small batches. That is not really an issue for pure custom blades unless you need something resembling PG stock, but it can add up if you are making a lot of knives.
 
Yeah, bang for the buck is a big factor. 15N20 is clean in its composition and also clean finished. If you look at A2 from the same source, it is only about 33% more but that is scaly bar. It is like double if ground clean of scale and decarb, at least for small batches. That is not really an issue for pure custom blades unless you need something resembling PG stock, but it can add up if you are making a lot of knives.


Yeah, A2 is quite economical if you have a kiln.
 
Back
Top