1095 with a purposely low rockwell

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wildnorth

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I have only minimal experience heat treating metals and zero working with 1095, I'm hoping someone won't mind explaining how to acheive an RC no lower than 50 and no higher than 55 with 1095 steel

my company is expanding and currently we have some prototype knife designs fresh off the water jet, these knives are intended to stand up to hard field use as well as being thrown and I do not want them to break in half against a log round. i own a bark river throwing knife made from 1095 with a RC of 48-50 and it rebounds like a spring, I am looking to pull off something similar just maybe a bit higher on the rockwell scale
 
I would say that a knife designed to "hold up to hard field use" and one that is specifically intended to be thrown should be two different knives. You will also find guys on here who feel that a 1095 knife should never leave their shop any softer than 60Rc. I am one of those guys.
 
Lots of tempering charts out there, though Rockwell hardness is only one of many variables of a durable blade. Not sure I've ever heard of a "hard use throwing knife", and there's probably a reason.
 
I have an original run Cold Steel GI Tanto. Came with cord wrapped handle. I've used it as a dedicated thrower for 15 years.??? (I could be slightly off on that, and it may have been a bit longer).

I don't know what hardness it is, but hard enough to use as a general use knife..

I've done just about everything wrong with that throwing knife. Hit other throwers, hit the poll and eye of other throwing hawks. Concrete tip first from full throws. Never taken a set. I've bent the very tip against frozen sap/fat wood that I could not get a maul to split until it warmed up.....then it took about 30+ hits.

Bent it right back with a maul and splitting wedge head as an anvil. Still has not broken...even after years more throwing!!

So it can work.

I also have a large thrower from them that has lasted the same length of time.
 
Tempering at 600°F will give you Rc57-58, 650°F will give you Rc56-57, 700°F will give Rc 54-55, and 750°F will get Rc 52-53.

I would go with 600°F to 625°F in 1095.

The last inch or so at the tip can be drawn back a tad with a torch if needed after testing.

This is all assuming you get a proper quench and get the grain refined properly for a "rough use field knife". FDone correctly, 1095 will have an as-quenched hardness of Rc66-67.
5 gallons of Parks #50 and a good HT oven would be a requirement.
 
Seems a shame to want a soft spring temper and be saddled with 1095. it has all that extra carbon that's not going to have anything useful to do at lower hardness that will form carbides that serve no purpose and will make the steel weaker.

1095 is designed to form plate martensite. You want lath martensite.

Should have used something like 5160.
 
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Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Tempering at 600°F will give you Rc57-58, 650°F will give you Rc56-57, 700°F will give Rc 54-55, and 750°F will get Rc 52-53.

I would go with 600°F to 625°F in 1095.

The last inch or so at the tip can be drawn back a tad with a torch if needed after testing.

This is all assuming you get a proper quench and get the grain refined properly for a "rough use field knife". FDone correctly, 1095 will have an as-quenched hardness of Rc66-67.
5 gallons of Parks #50 and a good HT oven would be a requirement.
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Thank you very much, that was the exact answer I was looking for very helpful
 
Natlek said:
With tempering temperature after quenching you control final hardness of blade ....................
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Oh really? geez thanks I had no idea... no way I could have been looking for something more specific like what temperature.... you're not often much help to anyone are you?
 
jdm61 said:
I would say that a knife designed to "hold up to hard field use" and one that is specifically intended to be thrown should be two different knives. You will also find guys on here who feel that a 1095 knife should never leave their shop any softer than 60Rc. I am one of those guys.
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well like I said, I have a bark river thrower made form 1095 which they claim to have an rc of 48-50 - it stays sharp and takes a beating from both throwing and regular use and from the loud springing twang sound it makes rebounding off a bad miss I doubt it will ever break so thats what I am trying to replicate
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
Seems a shame to want a soft spring temper and be saddled with 1095. it has all that extra carbon that's not going to have anything useful to do at lower hardness that will form carbides that serve no purpose and will make the steel weaker.

1095 is designed to form plate martensite. You want lath martensite.

Should have used something like 5160.
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I wanted 5160 I count get it, these specialty steels are harder to find and way more pricey here in canada, and every plate online is only max 2 inches wide. I may try a2 tool steel if these prototypes don't perform because it's available but only in 1/4 inch wich is think is a little thick, I just own and use a lot of 1095 knives and I've had nothing but positive experiences with them all
 
jdm61 said:
I would say that a knife designed to "hold up to hard field use" and one that is specifically intended to be thrown should be two different knives. You will also find guys on here who feel that a 1095 knife should never leave their shop any softer than 60Rc. I am one of those guys.
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I forgot to mention, the ka-bar becker BK9 is 1095 with an rc of 57 I throw that knife often as well as use it for batoning wood, clearing brush, felling skinny little trees in the wetland on my farm, even breaking stone with the spine on a fairly regular basis, it's sharp and straight and it ain't gonna break
 
Beckers are not made from 1095. They are made from Sharon 0170-6 aka 50B-100 aka 1095 CroVan. Different steel and yes, still left too soft IMO.
wildnorth said:
I forgot to mention, the ka-bar becker BK9 is 1095 with an rc of 57 I throw that knife often as well as use it for batoning wood, clearing brush, felling skinny little trees in the wetland on my farm, even breaking stone with the spine on a fairly regular basis, it's sharp and straight and it ain't gonna break
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wildnorth said:
what would that reason be?
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Throwing knives are typically more "wedge" than "knife". They are shaped and tempered to take impacts and not break. Because of this "spring temper", they're not going to take or hold much of an edge. Can you sharpen a throwing knife? Absolutely. Will it hold an edge? Not really, and certainly not for what I would consider "hard use". An edge that's thin enough to be a good cutter, but still soft enough to take repeated impacts from throwing, is going to start flattening and rolling with every impact. If you thicken the geometry up enough to mitigate this, then it's not going to cut as well, and after a certain thickness won't stick as well either.
I've had knives with soft tempers, and I stopped using them because I got tired of sharpening them after 5 minutes. Just my $.02. YMMV.
 
Drew Riley said:
Throwing knives are typically more "wedge" than "knife". They are shaped and tempered to take impacts and not break. Because of this "spring temper", they're not going to take or hold much of an edge. Can you sharpen a throwing knife? Absolutely. Will it hold an edge? Not really, and certainly not for what I would consider "hard use". An edge that's thin enough to be a good cutter, but still soft enough to take repeated impacts from throwing, is going to start flattening and rolling with every impact. If you thicken the geometry up enough to mitigate this, then it's not going to cut as well, and after a certain thickness won't stick as well either.
I've had knives with soft tempers, and I stopped using them because I got tired of sharpening them after 5 minutes. Just my $.02. YMMV.
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respectfully basically none of what you have said is true, get on the google, check out bullseye blades, check out the bark river thrower, check out cold steel perfect balance throwers, cold steel jack dagger throwers, cold steel has some more large live edge throwing knives as well, check out a company called true balance. All of these company's make multiple live edge throwing knives, intended for throwing as well hard as field use. I own most of the throwing knives most of these company's make and I personally use them for throwing daily, daily carry usually at least one and use it daily for regular tasks as well as take them and use them hunting, camping and fishing.... they all hold an edge pretty well....
 
jdm61 said:
Beckers are not made from 1095. They are made from Sharon 0170-6 aka 50B-100 aka 1095 CroVan. Different steel and yes, still left too soft IMO.
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True, and thank you for the continuing discussion. I was hoping you would reply, if you give this video a watch it literally proves through testing ( as far as I can see ) that 1095 with an RC around 52 to 55 will work exactly as I am hoping it will


would be great to get your take on it
 
8670 is currently the toughest steel tested by Larrin. We have 1095 coming up for comparison, but it should be much lower than 8670. Look at O1, A2, CruforgeV, and 52100 which are similar steels. 9260 would be a great choice too. Go to knifesteelnerds.com to see the toughness testing results. Or the charpy thread on Bladeforums.
 
wildnorth said:
respectfully basically none of what you have said is true, get on the google, check out bullseye blades, check out the bark river thrower, check out cold steel perfect balance throwers, cold steel jack dagger throwers, cold steel has some more large live edge throwing knives as well, check out a company called true balance. All of these company's make multiple live edge throwing knives, intended for throwing as well hard as field use. I own most of the throwing knives most of these company's make and I personally use them for throwing daily, daily carry usually at least one and use it daily for regular tasks as well as take them and use them hunting, camping and fishing.... they all hold an edge pretty well....
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I'm hesitant to comment here because you seem to think that you have all the answers, and you also seem to think that you're entitled to have other people do your homework for you. However, I'll comment anyway. I can speak with some authority on this topic. I supply a lot of the steel and heat-treating for Bullseye Blades. I've made and sold well over 10,000 throwing knives. I'm extremely familiar with the other products you mention here. Cold Steel knives break all the time. True Bal does not make a live-edged knife as far as I know.

I think the biggest thing you're missing is that durability isn't a binary issue. The experience of any one user (you, for example) is mostly meaningless. The existence of a particular product with a particular declared use is mostly meaningless. What does matter is the actual failure rate of these products. Selecting one steel over another is a matter of reducing failure rates - it isn't a matter of eliminating failure. This is because the act of throwing subjects the steel to forces that often approach or exceed the material's strength. The torture testing video you posted is just not representative of the forces involved with knife throwing.

Make a thousand knives, sell them with some kind of generous/unlimited guarantee, and you'll see what I mean. Some of your customers will feel that your knife is absolutely indestructible. Some will be satisfied. Some will be disappointed that the edge retention isn't so great. Some will break your knife in the first month. Some will break it in the first year. Some will break it after 5 years. Dealing with knife warranty claims over international borders is a dumpster fire.
 
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