I’ve recently caught word of a stainless steel that is heat treatable in a forge that can hold temperatures. This magical steel is called 12c27, I’ve read up on it and heard great things. I know I know that a forge likely won’t get the most out of the steel, but I’m not necessarily looking for supreme performance here, I have quite a few people who want knives that really aren’t interested in performance and just want something that works and won’t rust (people are too lazy to put some oil on a carbon steel knife these days). So I’m interested in hearing from people who have worked with it and how they like it. Also I’ve looked around and can’t find anyone who caries it in the US, so does anyone know of a supplier where shipping won’t cost me an arm and a leg? And lastly this is the first well performing stainless steel I’ve heard of that can be heat treated in a forge and takes an oil quench… does anyone know if others that will do this? Thanks.
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12c27 stainless steel, anyone worked with it? and where is a good source in the US?
- Thread starter Tyler.t76
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XHP will give you mediocre results if you drive it to really high heat and quench it. I've got some plane irons that seem suitably hard, but knives are hard to get enough heat and I've ended up with usable knives, but the hardness is by perception in the high 50s.
(plane irons have a much smaller area to heat, so finding concentrated heat isn't as difficult)
I sent an underheated sample to larrin thinking maybe it didn't need all of the heat that made a (subjectively) better and much harder plane iron since I'm not dissolving chromium. Bad bet. Came back around 57.3 hardness with 8.something of toughness by his charts.
With some additional support to the apex and a thin grind, the test knife I made out of it works great.
Did I mention? XHP is expensive.
the harder plane irons that I've made have planed head to head with Lee Valley's PM V11 to 95% of the distance that V11 irons plane. they are at the top of XHPs range, which probably has something to do with it. The softer samples wouldn't get there, but I haven't made a plane iron with these softer type samples.
what i'm giving you for this is cowboy advice, not proper heat treatment - but what I did is this for the harder plane irons - bar stock, right out of the box, heat to a very high temperature as quickly as possible. you'll have trouble getting past the 1950 or so that's suggested, and this needs to happen in like a minute or two, not 20.
Quench in oil.
I made this tiny test mule a couple of years ago and it's also higher hardness than the sample that I sent, but it's not close to (by my perception) getting where Lee Valley gets their irons after temper (63 hardness). It's thin and will slice a long time without chipping. when a knife is either iffy or a bit soft and getting a really fine edge is a burden, I will generally used a stitched wheel to buff off the apex just a little bit and then it will hold up fine, and the buffer will get rid of the burr with an efficiency that you couldn't match by hand.
XHP test mule
AEB-L will also cowboy harden like this, but you need high heat very fast. It'll also get into the high 80s after temper - you have to be willing to waste some time because it'll get past where you want it to be hardness wise and incremental tempering is necessary to find the point where it stops chipping. Buffer trick applies - I used this to gauge the wear resistance of AEB-L for planing wood (very good - hardness from the cowboy hardening comes up short, though) and haven't made a knife from it. It's far harder than saw temper ...far harder......in high quality 1095 spring, which is 52. It's just not 60 or above where you can start to get nice burr characteristics and easy sharpening and edge strength.
(plane irons have a much smaller area to heat, so finding concentrated heat isn't as difficult)
I sent an underheated sample to larrin thinking maybe it didn't need all of the heat that made a (subjectively) better and much harder plane iron since I'm not dissolving chromium. Bad bet. Came back around 57.3 hardness with 8.something of toughness by his charts.
With some additional support to the apex and a thin grind, the test knife I made out of it works great.
Did I mention? XHP is expensive.
the harder plane irons that I've made have planed head to head with Lee Valley's PM V11 to 95% of the distance that V11 irons plane. they are at the top of XHPs range, which probably has something to do with it. The softer samples wouldn't get there, but I haven't made a plane iron with these softer type samples.
what i'm giving you for this is cowboy advice, not proper heat treatment - but what I did is this for the harder plane irons - bar stock, right out of the box, heat to a very high temperature as quickly as possible. you'll have trouble getting past the 1950 or so that's suggested, and this needs to happen in like a minute or two, not 20.
Quench in oil.
I made this tiny test mule a couple of years ago and it's also higher hardness than the sample that I sent, but it's not close to (by my perception) getting where Lee Valley gets their irons after temper (63 hardness). It's thin and will slice a long time without chipping. when a knife is either iffy or a bit soft and getting a really fine edge is a burden, I will generally used a stitched wheel to buff off the apex just a little bit and then it will hold up fine, and the buffer will get rid of the burr with an efficiency that you couldn't match by hand.
XHP test mule
AEB-L will also cowboy harden like this, but you need high heat very fast. It'll also get into the high 80s after temper - you have to be willing to waste some time because it'll get past where you want it to be hardness wise and incremental tempering is necessary to find the point where it stops chipping. Buffer trick applies - I used this to gauge the wear resistance of AEB-L for planing wood (very good - hardness from the cowboy hardening comes up short, though) and haven't made a knife from it. It's far harder than saw temper ...far harder......in high quality 1095 spring, which is 52. It's just not 60 or above where you can start to get nice burr characteristics and easy sharpening and edge strength.
The suggestion of blanks are already done and to suitable hardness is a good one. I have a small setup for high concentrated heat, and the larger furnace that I have (a stainless two burner propane furnace) just won't make the heat to shoot the steel temperature up quickly.
I can't think of anything good that will happen with stainless steel that both:
* spends a bunch of time getting from 800F to 1400F (loss of stainless characteristics as chromium migrates), and
* sits in the open atmosphere hot for a long time just waiting to get hotter.
comments aside here - cowboy hardened XHP is better than most knives that are intentionally soft medium carbon so that they can be steeled. 8 ft lbs of toughness is a knife that will soon have a broken tip if anyone does anything rotten with it, though.
I already know how my comments above will be viewed, but who cares. You can try some things with little money spent and get some understanding and personal data when you're a beginner or intermediate, and then cease when you don't have success.
I can't think of anything good that will happen with stainless steel that both:
* spends a bunch of time getting from 800F to 1400F (loss of stainless characteristics as chromium migrates), and
* sits in the open atmosphere hot for a long time just waiting to get hotter.
comments aside here - cowboy hardened XHP is better than most knives that are intentionally soft medium carbon so that they can be steeled. 8 ft lbs of toughness is a knife that will soon have a broken tip if anyone does anything rotten with it, though.
I already know how my comments above will be viewed, but who cares. You can try some things with little money spent and get some understanding and personal data when you're a beginner or intermediate, and then cease when you don't have success.
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AEB-L is another stainless steel forges well. Here is a link to a video of an AEB-L knife being forged:
We have AEB-L in stock:
AEB-L Stainless Steel • Alpha Knife Supply - AKS
AEB-L Stainless Steel For Sale • Largest variety of thickness, lengths and widths of AEB-L Billets and AEB-L Bar Stock • Fast Shipping & Excellent Prices!
www.alphaknifesupply.com
Chuck
Hengelo_77
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If you are going to make something, might as well make it right.
Either HT it right or out source HT
Either HT it right or out source HT
Probably a question of whether or not anything is being charged for the knives. I've given a few knives away. They're never assumed to be equal to high end heat treatment, but I've literally never charged anything for them, either - not even for the materials.
If I had $30 of scrap XP floating around and someone was OK with a 58 hardness XHP kitchen knife, I'd probably make one. I have made one, with a flat thin grind. the guy who has it loves it. I have the second - it's about the same and missed the hardness target. My wife won't allow it in the kitchen ("too sharp"), so it's in my desk drawer.
this changes drastically if anything appreciable is being charged for the knives. Lots of things can go south - too soft, knife breaks, cowboy heat treatment ruins/lowers corrosion resistance (not that XHP and AEB-L are the kings of that in the first place).
You should do whatever you want with your chisels but please leave the heat treat of knives to us , especially stainless one
I wouldn't charge anyone even for stock for a stainless knives. I've made two knives for people - one above mentioned - slightly underhard XHP. This is all I heard from it (this is from a well-heeled friend who has some truly rare stuff
"Trying to figure out why this knife cuts so easy. I think what it is, is the thinness as it tapers down to the edge. It’s like there’s just no wedging action at all! But the back—the top of the spine—is about the same as my ______" (expensive hand made japanese knife, not going to list the maker of that)
comments from the other - unsolicited (albeit O1):
"This morning I needed to slice some partially frozen venison. The thin knife sliced through it effortlessly. We bought some sort of steak I never heard of ..."Denver Cut, whatever that is. Well, grilled it was tough. At noon I intended to make a sandwich of it. Toughness required it to be sliced very thin. Knife was ideal for thin slicing, near wood shaving thickness.
I don't know that one can buy a thin knife, but a thin knife is indispensable for some kinds of slicing."
.....
"I cooked a steak larger than we consumed in one meal. The remainder was thin sliced with the best thin slicing knife ever. You just can not buy a modern knife that will slice like that."
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personally, I won't charge for knives, but they may turn out a little better than you think. there's a big difference between someone relatively skilled giving things away and selling them. I'm guessing the world is now devoid of the former and only buyers and pros exist. Which is a shame.
Of course, I could make a better knife with 26c3, but I haven't had anyone ask for a knife in a while.
I made the mistake (maybe, maybe not) of assuming that the OP was making knives for people he knew. I'll still let him and his customers make up his mind, but I wouldn't really trust anyone other than myself cowboying these kinds of things, and i'm not about to chase trying to figure out how to do stainless in the open atmosphere to match book specs. There are things even I won't try once the results suggest little chance of success.
"Trying to figure out why this knife cuts so easy. I think what it is, is the thinness as it tapers down to the edge. It’s like there’s just no wedging action at all! But the back—the top of the spine—is about the same as my ______" (expensive hand made japanese knife, not going to list the maker of that)
comments from the other - unsolicited (albeit O1):
"This morning I needed to slice some partially frozen venison. The thin knife sliced through it effortlessly. We bought some sort of steak I never heard of ..."Denver Cut, whatever that is. Well, grilled it was tough. At noon I intended to make a sandwich of it. Toughness required it to be sliced very thin. Knife was ideal for thin slicing, near wood shaving thickness.
I don't know that one can buy a thin knife, but a thin knife is indispensable for some kinds of slicing."
.....
"I cooked a steak larger than we consumed in one meal. The remainder was thin sliced with the best thin slicing knife ever. You just can not buy a modern knife that will slice like that."
------------------------------
personally, I won't charge for knives, but they may turn out a little better than you think. there's a big difference between someone relatively skilled giving things away and selling them. I'm guessing the world is now devoid of the former and only buyers and pros exist. Which is a shame.
Of course, I could make a better knife with 26c3, but I haven't had anyone ask for a knife in a while.
I made the mistake (maybe, maybe not) of assuming that the OP was making knives for people he knew. I'll still let him and his customers make up his mind, but I wouldn't really trust anyone other than myself cowboying these kinds of things, and i'm not about to chase trying to figure out how to do stainless in the open atmosphere to match book specs. There are things even I won't try once the results suggest little chance of success.
You should do whatever you want with your chisels but please leave the heat treat of knives to us , especially stainless one
I'm giving you a little static for no reason - cost and time no object, send it out - absolutely.
this situation occasionally gets flip flopped when I get requests for chisels after someone is unhappy with the results they begged out of a bladesmith who specializes in knives. but it's easier being me in this situation because nobody really makes really good chisels at this point that have both excellent steel and the feel of a chisel that was made for professional users.
I'm waiting for someone to break one of those two knives above, but the two recipients are too smart to do something like that.
I'm learning a lot here, though, about the knife world and I like it. I don't have any interest in making knives, but I love seeing the difference in where priorities are. Geometry and accommodating the knife would be at the top of my list before anything else (it's so important in tools to prevent pain or difficulty using tools, but someone may go through a session with chisels where they're using them 4 hours straight. i still haven't figured out what everyone does with really fat knives made of really high carbide volume steel, or really tough knives that roll an edge really easily.
But that is not a shot, I just don't know what people do. I met a guy once who spent most of his time with a pocket knife scraping pipes, so slicing isn't the end all be all for everyone.
FredyCro
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If you pay for a steak in a restaurant and it is undercooked or overcooked, most will complain (I usually don't because I don't feel like ruining my dinner).
If you get invited for dinner to your friends place and get an overcooked steak, you will tell him how great the steak was (being polite).
This is not meant as an insult to your knives and friends. Fact is that most people don't know what HRC is and don't know what a good cutting knife is. I agree that a 58 HRC knife with good geometry will outperform 99 percent of the things that are sold today in the industry and that if you are giving the knifes for free and are confident that they will hold an edge it is fine to do so. Since I also don't sell, I regularly tell people that they can get a quality knife for around 100 USD in specialized shops and where the shops are. A lot of people can't afford or won't buy a custom knife for 300+ USD.
Several years ago I used 12C27 with success. BUT - like most any other high alloy steel it NEEDS an oven for proper HT. I did HT 440C in a forge using a buffer tube with TC to know temperature and hit 59/60 Rc when tested. BUT - a forge is NOT best way at all.
Fortunately, being polite isn't an issue with these guys. One sold high end japanese tools in the past and the other has used Bos on more than one occasion (actually, they've passed stuff back and forth heat treated by bos).
They each have their biases. One of the two is polite - the other will give you negative feedback whether you like it or not - he's wired like I am. Tell me the worst you can if you think it's useful (do it even if you just feel like it), I'll get over it (or more like not care) if you can tell me something negative that's legitimate.
People who are only positive are kind of tiring.
Did you get kicked off of your last forum?
heat treatment? Maybe I read larrin wrong (i doubt it), but I kind of expected more out of his dad. Who can't match my 26c3 forge coupons.
I’ve never made 26c3 coupons.
All of the coupons tested were heat treated from the as received condition. Maybe you did get slightly better results.
You continue to repeat yourself over and over and over again.
We’ve heard enough about O-1, 26c3, XHP, heat treating in a forge, and chisels to last a lifetime.
I’ve never heard someone talk so much and say so little as you.
And we don’t care.
Hoss
if you tell yourself nobody will ever want to do anything any way other than the way you do it, and you keep telling yourself that over and over and over, it becomes easy to believe it. The older you get, the harder it is to process new information and consider things that you just don't feel like processing.
I get it. Even at 45, I'm starting to experience that processing new stuff - especially if someone else communicates it and you have to see it through a lens that's not yours - that it's more difficult.
The angle that I'm taking - observing outcomes and fitness for use, I get it - it's foreign to you. There are definitely plenty of folks who would probably heat treat in a forge for a couple of years before they scrape together the money to get a furnace. Or there may be people like me who have zero issue with the money side of it but don't to get a furnace and potentially have to figure out how to dump it later without giving it away if making stops at a few hundred things instead of a few thousand. I can't imagine that understanding what works and doesn't in a forge would help a whole lot in understanding the advantages of using a furnace or even solving problems encountered when using a furnace.
I’ve made tens of thousands of bars of damascus using a forge and at least a hundred different alloys. I’m pretty sure I know how to use a forge.
You have very little experience with a forge and no experience using a furnace. And based on that, you give lots of advice.
Hoss
Thank you everyone for the replies, it seems to have turned to quite a debate haha. I’d like to clarify that when I said I’m not looking for extreme performance I was not referring to giving someone a soft blade, or poorly made blade, I meant I understand that this specific steel may not be the greatest knife steel out there, and that it may be hit or miss with a forge heat treat, I would not take someone’s money for a tool I do not trust to perform well. As for outsourcing heat treatment, I’m just not interested in it, I like to do things myself even if it means trial and error, call me an idiot if you want 
. I’ve come to the conclusion this steel is not available to me, and so for now I will sticking to my carbon steels, until I save up the funds for a heat treating oven. Appreciate the replies!
. I’ve come to the conclusion this steel is not available to me, and so for now I will sticking to my carbon steels, until I save up the funds for a heat treating oven. Appreciate the replies!- Status