1840 NCO sword

kvaughn

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Dec 28, 2005
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I have seen some online info that says the first 1000 1840 NCO swords were made by S&K, a German sword maker, for the US. Anybody know about this? Any difference in the S&K's and Ames NCO swords?

Thanx for any info.--KV
 
I believe the information relates the 1840 cavalry sword, not the nco sword. Both the S&K and subsequent Ames made m1840 cavalry swords were based on the French 1822.

There was more than one cavalry order from S&K, so whatever information you found is either being misread, or simply misinformed.

Cheers

GC
 
Finally got back to the books and you are exactly right! Aside from the first forty sent for evaluation, one thousand of the m1840 were delivered along with the first batch of cavalry swords.. When I manage to get the foot out of my mouth, I really would like to see the sword in question.

Along with the nco and cavalry swords. during the period 1840-1841, there were 500 musician swords 100 infantry swords 500 horse artillery swords 54 officers horse artillery swords and 1 officers light cavalry sword; all delivered from S&K.

Not having looked for s&k examples aside from the cavalry swords, I honestly can't speak to the differences between the 40 evaluation swords, 1000 delivered for that first contract and the subsequent regular production.

Cheers

GC
 
GC
I recently re discovered this sword in my gun safe.
Are you still interested in a pic.
I would be very interested in your info and possibilities on sale.
Sorry for the long delay on responding but life got busy and I forgot about this.
I see your email address in one of your responses and could probably get a pic to you that way despite my lack of computer skills
Thanks,
Keith Vaughn
 
GC
I recently re discovered this sword in my gun safe.
Are you still interested in a pic.
I would be very interested in your info and possibilities on sale.
Sorry for the long delay on responding but life got busy and I forgot about this.
I see your email address in one of your responses and could probably get a pic to you that way despite my lack of computer skills
Thanks,
Keith Vaughn
horseclover horseclover talk about a cool thread back from the dead...
 
Yes, necromacy at its best. :) I have since, perhaps, found some more information on the U.S. form in one of the books.

Keith and I are in an email exchange now and I hope to get his photos up. I can easily admit to not seeing it all, nor having all the answers. Bowl me over and I need to look in my (somewhat recent) copy of Thillmann's US Army swords book. I have to dig in there, or wherever it was I saw a snippet. Also to post it in a Civil War board where some more eyes will see it.

What does it say on the hang tag?

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I will get to this today or tomorrow.

Civil War Army Swords; A Study of United States Army Swords from 1832 through 1865​

John H. Thillmann (Author)
Publisher ‏ : ‎ Andrew Mowbray Publishers, Inc.; 1st edition (February 15, 2008)
  • Language ‏ : ‎ English
  • Hardcover ‏ : ‎ 624 pages
  • ISBN-10 ‏ : ‎ 1931464316
  • ISBN-13 ‏ : ‎ 978-1931464314
An expansive book and may be where I read a passage that possibly explains your sword.

You can upload images directly to this board if you care to register and post.



If I have seemed absent, life has been busy.

Cheers
GC
 
The tag is handwritten by the previous owner, a history of 1840 NCO swords referencing books by H. Peterson "American Swords" and "American Pommeled Early Swords"? by Mowbray.
The tag also mentions the possibility of this being purchased by the Confederacy or possibly a private purchase
The blade is unsharpened with slight pitting in the last few inches of the point.
Thanx a bunch for your knowledge and help GC.
I can send more pics if needed.
KV
 
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I would like to sell this sword but not sure what category to post it in or the value. Ideas?
 
I would like to sell this sword but not sure what category to post it in or the value. Ideas?
For value your best bet is what they are going for:

A quick google search shows one with a scabbard at 1250.00 at one of those civil war stores (they might be a little ambitious), there's several on the big auction site for 400-700 dollars (they might be fake). A reputable sales house who also happens to be selling of a lot of the Royal Armory of Nepal has one for 525.00 If I was to guess I suspect that yours is in the 250-400 dollar range. Glen can correct me if my logic is flawed.

You would be better off posting it in a civil war forum or a sword forum, swords typically don't sell well here.
 
The S&K version of the M1840 NCO and its similar musician's sword is different for a couple ways. First the grip is brass wire-wrapped wood; the Ames and other manufacturers used a solid brass grip. They are often found missing the wire, Second, the tang is screwed vice peened. (I would post a photo but I don't know how to do it on this site - seems you have to have an http: address of the image.

If you decide to sell your sword and determine the price, I would be interested.
 
I finally had a chance to revisit a couple of books and their is no mention of the trials swords having wire, or that first batch of contract swords. The sword still presents a big question. I was about to send your photos off to an associate so he can scratch his head too, or he actually has an answer. I cannot fathom that the contract swords had wire but it is possible that the trials swords did (confirming the US went with S&K) but in the contract, stipulating cast grips.

If it were to be proven it is one of the trials swords, it is worth far more than the actual 1840 contract swords.

Anyway, I was about to ping someone about this sword. I had hoped you might have posted at that ACW board, as there are many more eyes. That hang tag may go back to the 1950s, with Peterson's publication is as old as I am. :D


Cheers
GC
 
The S&K version of the M1840 NCO and its similar musician's sword is different for a couple ways. First the grip is brass wire-wrapped wood; the Ames and other manufacturers used a solid brass grip. They are often found missing the wire, Second, the tang is screwed vice peened. (I would post a photo but I don't know how to do it on this site - seems you have to have an http: address of the image.

If you decide to sell your sword and determine the price, I would be interested.
Yes, Richard needs this sword!

Photos are via a third party host or modest subscription here.

Cheers
GC
 
I finally had a chance to revisit a couple of books and their is no mention of the trials swords having wire, or that first batch of contract swords. The sword still presents a big question. I was about to send your photos off to an associate so he can scratch his head too, or he actually has an answer. I cannot fathom that the contract swords had wire but it is possible that the trials swords did (confirming the US went with S&K) but in the contract, stipulating cast grips.

If it were to be proven it is one of the trials swords, it is worth far more than the actual 1840 contract swords.

Anyway, I was about to ping someone about this sword. I had hoped you might have posted at that ACW board, as there are many more eyes. That hang tag may go back to the 1950s, with Peterson's publication is as old as I am. :D


Cheers
GC
The hang tag is from the previous owner who gave it to me about 30 years ago.
He was an associate of Norm Flayderman who lived in New Milford Ct, as I did.
Your opinion on the worth would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Keith
 
The S&K version of the M1840 NCO and its similar musician's sword is different for a couple ways. First the grip is brass wire-wrapped wood; the Ames and other manufacturers used a solid brass grip. They are often found missing the wire, Second, the tang is screwed vice peened. (I would post a photo but I don't know how to do it on this site - seems you have to have an http: address of the image.

If you decide to sell your sword and determine the price, I would be interested.
Yes I am interested in selling this sword but am having trouble determining a fair price as you can see.
Seems I had a mystery sword hiding in my safe all this time.
Thanks for the offer.
 
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