20cv Sharpening Advice

Jbrown250

Platinum Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2022
Messages
107
Hey everyone:

Just ordered a custom Benchmade Mini Crooked River in 20cv (after debating 20cv vs s30v vs s90v for wayyy to long).

My question is, will Shapton Pro stones sharpen this steel (within a reasonable amount of time)? I own a small DMT diamond stone set (320,640,1200) but they are quite small and if diamond stones are needed I would probably get larger stones for home, and save the DMT for the field. Either way I'll be buying a Shapton to compliment my current 1000grit (maybe a 1500), or buying 2 diamond stones to make a set. I have a Atoma 120 diamond stone for flattening stones (or major edge repairs)

I use these stones for all my knives including kitchen knives, so if I can get away with Shapton that's ideal as almost all my current knives are softer steel. I am by no means a pro sharpener, but have started practicing frequently.

Thanks for reading.
 
Probably will want to use the 120 the first time to set your angle but you should be fine after that
 
20cv steel has 4% Vanadium. You'll need diamond whetstones.
Of the steels you listed, only s30v has a decent chance on Shaptons. That's really the limit for aluminum oxide.
 
20cv steel has 4% Vanadium. You'll need diamond whetstones.
Of the steels you listed, only s30v has a decent chance on Shaptons. That's really the limit for aluminum oxide.
Thank you for the hard numbers! Well I’m learning to sharpen, I have considered getting the KME pro set with their gold diamond stones. That should cover my bases.
 
Thank you for the hard numbers! Well I’m learning to sharpen, I have considered getting the KME pro set with their gold diamond stones. That should cover my bases.
I would also check out the tsprof line of sharpeners if you haven’t yet. I absolutely love my Kadet model!
 
I would also check out the tsprof line of sharpeners if you haven’t yet. I absolutely love my Kadet model!
And Hapstone too. Have a serious look at the Hapstone R2 series. Great value for money and excellent quality.
 
Wow, Hapstone looks great to. Has anyone used both and have a opinion between tsprof and Hapstone?

Thanks!
 
I have only used a Hapstone R2, so I can’t compare them. I do like my R2, though. A quick search around here should net you some comparisons.
 
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Wow, Hapstone looks great to. Has anyone used both and have a opinion between tsprof and Hapstone?

Thanks!
I have and use all of the TSProf models and all of the Hapstone models, among most other systems too.

When it comes to versatility, value for money and upgradeability the Hapstone is unbeatable. Built like a tank and incredibly well priced for what you get. Gritomatic would be your best place to get them - USA based company with great support and after sales service.
 
I have and use all of the TSProf models and all of the Hapstone models, among most other systems too.

When it comes to versatility, value for money and upgradeability the Hapstone is unbeatable. Built like a tank and incredibly well priced for what you get. Gritomatic would be your best place to get them - USA based company with great support and after sales service.
Awesome thanks! I have read a whole bunch of Forums on sharpening systems, in which you have popped up many times!

I was going to add: digital angle cube, spring stoppers, fine tune adapter, and venev diamond stones 80,600,1200. Is there anything else you would recommend? Stropping or lapping by chance?
 
Awesome thanks! I have read a whole bunch of Forums on sharpening systems, in which you have popped up many times!

I was going to add: digital angle cube, spring stoppers, fine tune adapter, and venev diamond stones 80,600,1200. Is there anything else you would recommend? Stropping or lapping by chance?
Not sure about the 600 Venev you're talking about. Do you mean 400 or 800 grit? Gritomatic does not sell a 600 grit Venev.

I would recommend 80,240,400 for every day carry knives. The 400 grit Venev approaches about the same finish as many 1000 grit stones (depending on the grit rating). If you want to experiment with smoother edges and eventually go to polished edges then I would say go for the 800 and 1200 Venev also but it really is not necessary for every day knife edges.

Don't worry too much about stropping just yet, until you get used to the Hapstone system but if you want to experiment with just 1 strop to start with, then I would say go for a 1 micron gunny paste on either a thin leather (like kangaroo) or on a wood strop.

For stone maintenance and conditioning, get yourself a conditioning stone like the "King Nagura" 8000 on Amazon, they are only about 10 bucks. When your Venev stones eventually get loaded up and slow down a bit in performance (this will take many sharpening sessions), then simply rub the King Nagura over the Venev surface under running water until it cleans up and conditions nicely. This will only take a minute or so.

As far as lapping / flattening is concerned - don't worry about this just yet. The new generation Venev stones will be good to go when they are new, without the need to lap or flatten them at all. Use soapy water (a few drops of liquid dish soap and water) as lubrication when sharpening, and simply clean the stones with a nylon brush / toothbrush and dish soap+water when you're done. Let them air dry before storing away. They will last a very long time before they dish out enough to need to be flattened. When they eventually do, then it is as simple as using silicon carbide (of a coarser grit than the stone) on a flat surface with a bit of water to lap the stones. You'll likely only ever need to flatten your coarse stones one day, not the finer ones unless you're planning on professionally sharpening thousands of knives.
 
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Is there anything else you would recommend?
I posted this recently in another thread, but let me copy it into here for you to make it easier. You might know most of this, so apologies if I'm preaching to the choir. :)

Some quick tips to get started :

1 - If you want to keep the angle the same as the factory angle, use a black sharpie to mark the edge and adjust your angle until you grind off the sharpie ink. Measure the angle and take note of it for the rest of your sharpening & future reference. I really recommend not going with factory angles as they are almost always off. Pick a decent edge angle (depending on the use of the knife) and re-grind the edge to this angle. Initial edge bevel setting / regrinding with your coarse stone will take a while but it's worth doing. For most modern steel knives with good heat treats and for every day use blades used for slice cutting - go for around 15 degrees sharpening angle per side of the blade. For chopping blades or more hard use edges, go for a higher angle.

2 - Always try to clamp your knives in the same spot - take a photo and keep it as a record for future use. Try to clamp the blade with the heel-to-tip line approximately perpendicular to your clamps (as far as possible).

3 - Make sure the insides of the clamps are clean, so no grit particles from previous sharpening scratches your knife when clamped. It's normally not necessary if your clamps are clean inside but if you want to be sure not to leave any scratches / scuffs on the blade then use some painters tape on your blade. Make sure the knife is securely clamped and does not rotate up and down at all inside the clamps. As far as possible, use 1 clamp on the flat ricasso area or a flat part of the landing on the spine if the knife has a flat section. This will stop any up and down rotation of the blade. Use the second clamp closer to the tip (about an inch back) to stop any up & down flex of the blade. If the knife has a thumb stud, remove it if possible or clamp the knife off to one side of the clamp bar so you miss the thumb stud while sharpening.

4 - Use a digital angle cube and always measure your sharpening angle on the same side of the blade and in the same spot of the blade and with your stone touching the blade on the same spot. Make sure the angle cube is perpendicular to the clamps / sharpening plane. Regular digital angle cubes cannot measure the correct angle if they are angled & rotated at the same time. If at all possible, use the middle of the rotating clamp unit as the line of measurement, not the extreme sides. If you're off to one side for whatever reason (knife clamped off to the side) then make sure the angle cube is perpendicular to the sharpening plane. This is very important. There will almost always be very slight differences in primary bevel angles / clamp asymmetry / bar asymmetry etc. Don't be too overly concerned about the slightly different angle you'll invariably get when measuring the opposite side of the blade. Don't re-measure and re-adjust the angle every time you flip the clamp bar around or you'll be chasing your own tail down a rabbit hole. I typically always measure my angle with the knife handle facing to my right and with the middle of the stone resting in the centre of the blade. Only ever measure and adjust your sharpening angle using the same consistent spot and same side of the knife.

5 - Use lubrication when sharpening with any stone, even if the manufacturer states it can be used dry. Soapy water works perfectly fine in most cases. Just a couple drops of plain old liquid dish soap and water in a dropper bottle will be fine.

6 - Don't use force when sharpening, just the weight of your hand is already almost too much. When finishing on your final stones and strops - don't use any pressure at all, just the weight of the stone and stone clamp bar is about enough as finishing stokes.

7 - Make sure you grind all the way to the very apex of the edge, especially on your coarse stones when setting a new edge bevel. Check and feel for a burr on the opposite side of the blade. Use a magnifying lens / USB microscope / loupe and a good light source if you want to visually keep and eye on it too.

8 - Don't grind down one side of the edge to much more than the other side, or your edge bevel will be wider on one side than the other side of the blade. This also means your edge will be out of alignment with the centre of the blade. If your edge bevel is smaller on one side of the blade, spend more time with your coarse stone on the narrow side until it is even with the opposite side.

9 - Before swapping stones, flip the knife over to the start point again, slide the burr off with a light pass of the coarse stone and re-measure your angle. Wipe all the previous stone particles and metal swarf off of your blade with a clean part of a damp cloth and be careful not to scratch your blade - loose diamond / abrasive particles wiped over the blade with a dry paper towel can easily scratch your blade. Swap stones to the next finer grit you want to use and adjust the angle to hit the same angle as before. With stones manufactured the "same thickness" - even with diamond plates there will mostly be a tiny difference in stone thickness that will affect your sharpening angle if you don't adjust for it.

10 - After initial bevel setting you won't need too many passes of your finer grit stones when you progress up. The Venev stones cut well and will remove the scratch pattern of the previous stone in no time at all.

11 - At the end of every stone use and before progressing to the next stone, flip the blade back and forth and do a few very light push strokes on each side (push strokes / leading edge strokes work well for burr minimisation during progression in my experience). For final finishing - edge trailing does a good job, but for progression and burr minimisation I find edge leading final strokes best.

12 - If for some reason you have a blade that struggles with microscopic edge chipping (and I mean microscopic - only visible under magnification), then raise the sharpening angle by about 0.2-0.5 degrees for the last while of sharpening with your final stone. Using very light strokes and creating a microbevel will often finish up a "challenging" steel quite well. Some people adjust the angle up a fraction every time they go to the next finer stone - this is also worth experimenting with and tends to speed up your sharpening a lot.

13 - Always strop with trailing edge strokes or you'll cut into your strops. When stropping with a soft substrate like leather, its worth dropping the angle lower by a tiny bit (up to 0.5 degrees sometimes) in order not to round the edge. If you're using loaded strops then only do very few light stokes. Start with only 5 strokes or so. If you do too many stokes, your edge could start to dull again.

14 - For an EDC edge, I personally prefer finishing with the Venev F400 grit and no stropping. It leaves a screaming sharp and very "sticky" edge on EDC knives.

15 - When you're done, clean up your Venev stones with a nylon brush / old toothbrush with dish soap and water. Rinse properly and let dry before storing them. After many sharpening sessions if you feel your stones are starting to load up or drop in performance, then use a conditioning stone to rub over the surface of the stones under running water for a minute or so until the surface is nicely reconditioned and clean again. I find the "King Nagura" #8000 stone works very well for this purpose.

16 - Don't obsess too much about stone "flatness" with your new set of Venev stones. They are good to go just as they are (brand new) and they don't really require any preparation when new. There are a lot of rumours about initial preparation but this has more to do with old generation Venev stones. After hundreds of sessions, you might want to flatten your coarse stone again with some silicon carbide on a flat surface, but it won't be necessary for a long time. Your finer grit stones will likely never need flattening unless you're a professional sharpener using them every day.
 
I posted this recently in another thread, but let me copy it into here for you to make it easier. You might know most of this, so apologies if I'm preaching to the choir. :)

Some quick tips to get started :

1 - If you want to keep the angle the same as the factory angle, use a black sharpie to mark the edge and adjust your angle until you grind off the sharpie ink. Measure the angle and take note of it for the rest of your sharpening & future reference. I really recommend not going with factory angles as they are almost always off. Pick a decent edge angle (depending on the use of the knife) and re-grind the edge to this angle. Initial edge bevel setting / regrinding with your coarse stone will take a while but it's worth doing. For most modern steel knives with good heat treats and for every day use blades used for slice cutting - go for around 15 degrees sharpening angle per side of the blade. For chopping blades or more hard use edges, go for a higher angle.

2 - Always try to clamp your knives in the same spot - take a photo and keep it as a record for future use. Try to clamp the blade with the heel-to-tip line approximately perpendicular to your clamps (as far as possible).

3 - Make sure the insides of the clamps are clean, so no grit particles from previous sharpening scratches your knife when clamped. It's normally not necessary if your clamps are clean inside but if you want to be sure not to leave any scratches / scuffs on the blade then use some painters tape on your blade. Make sure the knife is securely clamped and does not rotate up and down at all inside the clamps. As far as possible, use 1 clamp on the flat ricasso area or a flat part of the landing on the spine if the knife has a flat section. This will stop any up and down rotation of the blade. Use the second clamp closer to the tip (about an inch back) to stop any up & down flex of the blade. If the knife has a thumb stud, remove it if possible or clamp the knife off to one side of the clamp bar so you miss the thumb stud while sharpening.

4 - Use a digital angle cube and always measure your sharpening angle on the same side of the blade and in the same spot of the blade and with your stone touching the blade on the same spot. Make sure the angle cube is perpendicular to the clamps / sharpening plane. Regular digital angle cubes cannot measure the correct angle if they are angled & rotated at the same time. If at all possible, use the middle of the rotating clamp unit as the line of measurement, not the extreme sides. If you're off to one side for whatever reason (knife clamped off to the side) then make sure the angle cube is perpendicular to the sharpening plane. This is very important. There will almost always be very slight differences in primary bevel angles / clamp asymmetry / bar asymmetry etc. Don't be too overly concerned about the slightly different angle you'll invariably get when measuring the opposite side of the blade. Don't re-measure and re-adjust the angle every time you flip the clamp bar around or you'll be chasing your own tail down a rabbit hole. I typically always measure my angle with the knife handle facing to my right and with the middle of the stone resting in the centre of the blade. Only ever measure and adjust your sharpening angle using the same consistent spot and same side of the knife.

5 - Use lubrication when sharpening with any stone, even if the manufacturer states it can be used dry. Soapy water works perfectly fine in most cases. Just a couple drops of plain old liquid dish soap and water in a dropper bottle will be fine.

6 - Don't use force when sharpening, just the weight of your hand is already almost too much. When finishing on your final stones and strops - don't use any pressure at all, just the weight of the stone and stone clamp bar is about enough as finishing stokes.

7 - Make sure you grind all the way to the very apex of the edge, especially on your coarse stones when setting a new edge bevel. Check and feel for a burr on the opposite side of the blade. Use a magnifying lens / USB microscope / loupe and a good light source if you want to visually keep and eye on it too.

8 - Don't grind down one side of the edge to much more than the other side, or your edge bevel will be wider on one side than the other side of the blade. This also means your edge will be out of alignment with the centre of the blade. If your edge bevel is smaller on one side of the blade, spend more time with your coarse stone on the narrow side until it is even with the opposite side.

9 - Before swapping stones, flip the knife over to the start point again, slide the burr off with a light pass of the coarse stone and re-measure your angle. Wipe all the previous stone particles and metal swarf off of your blade with a clean part of a damp cloth and be careful not to scratch your blade - loose diamond / abrasive particles wiped over the blade with a dry paper towel can easily scratch your blade. Swap stones to the next finer grit you want to use and adjust the angle to hit the same angle as before. With stones manufactured the "same thickness" - even with diamond plates there will mostly be a tiny difference in stone thickness that will affect your sharpening angle if you don't adjust for it.

10 - After initial bevel setting you won't need too many passes of your finer grit stones when you progress up. The Venev stones cut well and will remove the scratch pattern of the previous stone in no time at all.

11 - At the end of every stone use and before progressing to the next stone, flip the blade back and forth and do a few very light push strokes on each side (push strokes / leading edge strokes work well for burr minimisation during progression in my experience). For final finishing - edge trailing does a good job, but for progression and burr minimisation I find edge leading final strokes best.

12 - If for some reason you have a blade that struggles with microscopic edge chipping (and I mean microscopic - only visible under magnification), then raise the sharpening angle by about 0.2-0.5 degrees for the last while of sharpening with your final stone. Using very light strokes and creating a microbevel will often finish up a "challenging" steel quite well. Some people adjust the angle up a fraction every time they go to the next finer stone - this is also worth experimenting with and tends to speed up your sharpening a lot.

13 - Always strop with trailing edge strokes or you'll cut into your strops. When stropping with a soft substrate like leather, its worth dropping the angle lower by a tiny bit (up to 0.5 degrees sometimes) in order not to round the edge. If you're using loaded strops then only do very few light stokes. Start with only 5 strokes or so. If you do too many stokes, your edge could start to dull again.

14 - For an EDC edge, I personally prefer finishing with the Venev F400 grit and no stropping. It leaves a screaming sharp and very "sticky" edge on EDC knives.

15 - When you're done, clean up your Venev stones with a nylon brush / old toothbrush with dish soap and water. Rinse properly and let dry before storing them. After many sharpening sessions if you feel your stones are starting to load up or drop in performance, then use a conditioning stone to rub over the surface of the stones under running water for a minute or so until the surface is nicely reconditioned and clean again. I find the "King Nagura" #8000 stone works very well for this purpose.

16 - Don't obsess too much about stone "flatness" with your new set of Venev stones. They are good to go just as they are (brand new) and they don't really require any preparation when new. There are a lot of rumours about initial preparation but this has more to do with old generation Venev stones. After hundreds of sessions, you might want to flatten your coarse stone again with some silicon carbide on a flat surface, but it won't be necessary for a long time. Your finer grit stones will likely never need flattening unless you're a professional sharpener using them every day.
Wow, first off, thank you for taking the time to reply with such a detailed answer. That info is extremely helpful and clears a lot of hesitation I had toward stone choices. I’ll definitely be checking back to refer to this information after buying the hapstone.

For a hunting knife, do you still find 400 to be a good grit to stop at?
 
Wow, first off, thank you for taking the time to reply with such a detailed answer. That info is extremely helpful and clears a lot of hesitation I had toward stone choices. I’ll definitely be checking back to refer to this information after buying the hapstone.

For a hunting knife, do you still find 400 to be a good grit to stop at?
No probs.

Yes, the Venev F400 finish (Note - this is Fepa-F grit rating) works just as well with a hunting knife / meat preparation knife as it does on an EDC edge - in my opinion. What you might want to do (depending on how your bush/hunting knife will be used) is to sharpen it to a higher angle. If you think you'll be hitting or wedging into bone / wood or do some minor chopping tasks, then perhaps up to a 25 degrees per side angle would be better. If it's just going to be a slicing knife, then about 15 degrees per side is best. In either case, the F400 finish is a solid choice.

For your 20VC Benchmade mini crooked river (it's an awesome knife BTW), I would do the work and put a nice 15 degrees per side edge on it. That will make it a marvellous slicer.
 
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For stone maintenance and conditioning, get yourself a conditioning stone like the "King Nagura" 8000 on Amazon, they are only about 10 bucks. When your Venev stones eventually get loaded up and slow down a bit in performance (this will take many sharpening sessions), then simply rub the King Nagura over the Venev surface under running water until it cleans up and conditions nicely. This will only take a minute or so.
The king nagura 8k stones are now $21.
Is there a big difference between the brands?

777, you probably drove the price up.
 
14 - For an EDC edge, I personally prefer finishing with the Venev F400 grit and no stropping. It leaves a screaming sharp and very "sticky" edge on EDC knives.
I'm interested but how do you deburr? You do micro bevel or you just leave some burr on the edge?
 
I sharpen M4, 20CV, etc on my shapton kuromakus and have never failed to get sharp edge, is it the prettiest? No, does it cut? You better believe
 
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