3V Heat Treat History

Odog27 said:
So from what I think I know:
Casinostocks Casinostocks orange and black 3V FK does not have the industry standard 3V protocol; instead a tweaked version. It’s better than the industry standard but not Delta.

Nathan the Machinist Nathan the Machinist is saying that there is still a significant enough difference between the tweaked 3V and the D3V that you would notice the difference.


Disclaimer: I don’t usually know what I think I know.
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Nathan also stated that if one were just cutting string and paper, they would most likely not notice the difference. If they were a solid user, like himself, they probably would.

And yes, I’m in the same boat when it comes to your disclaimer statement.:D I always say, I’m a very convincing liar,
When I don’t know what I’m talking about. Thus, it’s usually best for me to shut up Mike
 
I have cut enough pieces of paper to affirm and to confirm that I absolutely don't know the differences but I'd bet my last $ that if the papers which I have cut were sentient beings, they would for sure know and tell me the difference! :)
 
Define average user:D

And how is the measurement of "average" established, and whether one seeks a mean or median result....:D:D

EDIT: Maybe a poll.......:D:D:confused::eek::thumbsdown:

EDIT TO THE EDIT: Nevermind;)
 
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I'm with UffDa UffDa Purely my opinion as an even less-than-moderate user... Original FK in 3V versus the newer FK in D3V - I doubt I could tell. I doubt most even moderate users would find the original, tweaked heat treat 3V lacking.
 
UffDa said:
Not a biggie, but there is some contradiction here. That's why I brought this up. If it's not a night and day improvement, how is the difference significant? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to get it straight in my pea-brain.

Here's Nate's first sentence replying to my question. I don't think that he quite understood what I was asking.
"The average user can tell the difference between industry standard 3V and Delta 3V pretty easily, the difference in edge stability and therefore edge retention in normal use is significant."

Go back to my original question. Is the difference between a FK with Nate's original heat treat be that much different from a FK with the D3V heat treat that in a blind test, would an average user be able to tell the difference? Am I not being clear? I don't know how to word it any other way.
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The average user would probably only see the difference between D3V and the low temp tweak that immediately preceded it in side by side testing where there was either some impact such as a fast sliding cut such as sharpening large tent stakes or hard cutting against a harder materials such as whittling hardwood or cutting copper wire or maybe hitting a staple etc. Something where there is going to be some minor but visible (under bright light and magnification) edge deterioration and the extent of damage could be compared. It would probably take a side by side comparison to notice. If one were to say that D3V is 100% optimized then perhaps the tweak right before it was 90%? I'm sorry, that is probably an over simplification. That said, the difference between D3V and regular standard 3V is substantial, which is what I thought you were asking about.

Several years ago some of us using a low temp tweak noticed some of the 3V at the time wasn't reacting to HT the way we expected it to. Those of us who tested from each batch noticed a problem that required some re-work. A problem run can be annealed, which is a re-set, and then rerun. The fact that this can change the outcome shows you that some aspect of the process was borderline and something as minor as a change in the degree of spheroidization could cause a meaningful change in the outcome. This is where Guy, Dan and I put our heads together to try to identify what was causing the issue and find a solution to it and also to more thoroughly develop our heat treat. The problem is what initiated the discussion but the optimized heat treat was a separate part of that project. One result from this is more consistency in the process due to tighter controls and reduced variables. The processes that preceded Delta had more variation due to unknown variables so one might find a wider range of properties in it. Delta is a little better and it is also more consistent. This means that in addition to changes in the edge and bevel geometries and the target hardness between the first Field Knives, variations of them and the current production, you also have the current Delta protocol vs a range of low temp tweaks that preceded it. All of the Field Knives are going to perform well. You may or may not notice much difference between them, the differences are splitting hairs.
 
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Nathan the Machinist said:
View attachment 1130081Delta 3V after cutting through pressure treated decking, carving and chopping Osage orange, carving slivers from a 16 penny nail, and then cutting that nail in half this afternoon. This is the best in the industry.
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cuCSvoP.jpg
 
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