4-Max?! USA Made, CPM-20CV, Cold Steel?! This can't be happening!
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Nobody sells knives at MSRP. Knifecenter's pre-order price is $360. In all honesty, for a knife that's US made(totally US made) 4 inch blade with with CPM-20V steel, you're not likely to find something similar much cheaper, you're basically getting the closest you can get to a Demko custom without paying several hundred dollars more and actually GETTING a Demko custom.
I understand that. Let me rephrase then....I'm a fairly simple man, with very simple ways of thinking about things....
http://cdna.terasrenki.com/ds/CPM-20CV_DuraTech-20CV_Datasheet_1.pdf
There's no way I'm spending that kind of money [even half of the MSRP] on a 4" pocket knife that has resin impregnated, woven fiberglass scales [aka G-10] and some hyped up tool-steel - a 'perceived' super-steel - that has to be made twice as thick to do what any good carbon steel that's got better spring and is easier to sharpen.
....IMO, it's just a hyped up 440C on perhaps steroids.
Now, I'm no metallurgist and I'm certainly not a knife-snob....but I just don't buy in to all these "super steels" because I just don't see a need for it. Other [carbon] steels do better at less than quarter - to - half the cost. The only real benefit to any kind of stainless is the lack of needed maintenance and to me, that just translates to laziness. Stainless is also harder to sharpen in the field.
Don't get me wrong....I do love CS knives and have for many years but at half the asking price for this blade, I can purchase three Trail Master Bowie's; four SRK's; 4 recon Tanto's; three Recon Scouts; three Recon 1 Tanto's; TWELVE Trail Hawks....right off Amazon.
....the asking price, even at half the MSRP...is just ridiculous to me.
Compare it both cost, and performance wise to a Hinderer or Stryder (both of which it blows out of the water) and the cost is more than fair.
With that, I normally dont go in for knives in this price range (you can buy a gun for that kind of money) I am going to pick this one up...
I just have a suspicion that next year Cold Steel is going to make a production AD10 and I am going to have to buy that one as well.
Well we're also talking mass production knives versus a custom. A Hinderer? Basically a custom 3.5" knife....$500 + and pens for $200 +.......and Cold Steel? Mass produced and a good portion from overseas.....
At least for US made customs [not that I agree with it but] I can at least understand why they cost so much - but mass produced and imported? The price is not reasonable...not to the brain in this body. Even though the 4-MAX is 100% US made, it's still no "bargain" even at the "pre-order" price.
...and that brings me to another personal peeve....."pre-order"........
To me, "pre-order" means "We can do it but didn't have any plans to make it - but hey, we'll make a "limited" run if there's enough interest."......ah.....bunk. It's like trying to sell a Honus Wagner, 1909 baseball card for $2.8 million. It's a piece of freaking paper with some ink on it. What makes it "worth" $2.8 million? The fact some moron might actually pay that for it. Otherwise, it's just old paper with ink on it.
I mean for collectors, it's great - and more power to them....but I'm more about common-man stuff; reasonable costs for a reasonable product with a reasonable return [meaning the ability to serve a useful purpose]. This 4-MAX may very well be an awesome blade to have and own.....but someone's gonna' cry a river the moment they chip that edge, snap off that tip or don't get what they want for it when they try and sell it in 15 years.
I have no idea why I'm so cynical about this topic...for the life of me, I just can't justify the cost of this knife when like you said - I could buy a Glock for $100 more than the knifecenter's pre-order price.
Its a full run. And no, there is no hard use knife or there that can begin to approach Demko's designs in terms of strength. And even the Hinderer ZT's were preorder early on.
Its funny, the argument against this knives can not be about the knife itself, but other inconsequential things. Because the knife itself...well it beasts everything else out there in it class-hard use folder.
I d like a 3.5 inch version at 5 oz.Can't we also have a 3Max?
I mean, a 3" version of it?
Pre-order or not, full run or not...it's still just a knife....a tool....and tools break. It's got an edge and edged tools will dull. Unless Hephaestus himself forged this knife, it's still just a knife and it's only the "latest, greatest beast-mode-on" game-stopper until the next generation of "latest greatest beast-mode-on" game-stopper knives come out. Price is inconsequential? I think not.
I think I'll bow out of this conversation now...neither one of us will change our minds. Have a great evening.
Ok. But Cold Steel has an expansive line, with knives in basically every price range, speaking to a myriad of buyers. They have other knives than the 4-Max that fall into the area you are discussing. A Recon-1, American Lawman, or Code 4 would be knives more along those lines.
I'm not buying one of these either, but carbon steel folders? Ehhh no, thanks. For you it translates to laziness, for me it translates to more time I can spend doing the ~28000 other things I'd rather do than knife maintenance. You may not see a need for it, but me, I live in an environment that can get miserably humid, and I tend to swear when I'm outside, so I will not carry a carbon steel folder, period.
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Some of their fixed blades like the Master Hunter with CPM 3-V will be a welcome sight as well. One of my favorite fixed blades that doesn't get talked about to much.
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Insipid Moniker
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My Glock sucks at cutting stuff.
PeteyTwoPointOne
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Cliff Stamp? Is that you Cliff...?
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I'm convinced that there are users on here whose pass-time is inciting flame wars. Why bother posting such a comment on a hype thread other than to just upset people? He clearly doesn't want to be convinced of anything even though he is framing it that way.
The disconnect is pretty easy to understand at least. Yep, no one NEEDS a $360 knife we all know that. Humans have gotten along fine for thousands of years without powder steels and I'm sure you can live your life without ever buying into this. But because you don't need it or want it doesn't mean it isn't worth the money. We could even go on to justify collectors value but in this case I don't even think it is necessary because the numbers add up pretty easily.
Cold Steel contracts out all of its manufacturing, and this knife is 100% US made. A basic machine shop in the US is typically going to be running around $70/hour for their cost basis to cover labor, and indirect and direct overhead. Let's say they can make 1 knife per hour from raw material to finished product. So now we are at $70, then add material cost let's say $30 since this has G10, a powder steel and titanium which puts us at a total of $100. This shop now needs their cut which would be a 15-20% margin, so for simplicity let's say 20% bringing the total to $120 for JUST the knife. Now cold steel needs to sharpen it, package it and ship it and let's say they can do all of that for $10 bringing the total to $130.
Now they need to cover all of their overhead and development costs, site maintenance, marketing etc. So they are going to be selling to vendors at a minimum of a 50% mark up though I would honestly guess you are looking at a 100% markup at this point because retail is usually a tricky industry and you need to make some costly gambles where an entire line of products might not sell so the ones that do need to make up for it. So this brings the total to $260 for the cost to vendors who will usually slap on a 30-40% markup let's say giving you a grand total of $338-$364.
Now granted I'm really spit-balling all of these numbers and definitely flexing them to fit this example, but the point I'm trying to make is that yes while this knife might only be $30 worth of materials that is the smallest piece you are paying for. CNC machines are expensive to run, bits are expensive, the operators are skilled and have a high pay rate and finally the product changes hands multiple times and everyone needs to get paid along the way. You aren't getting ripped off because of this, that is just the reality of it.
Finally like a lot of people have said here, the best way to gauge something is compare it to the rest of the market and when you do that with the 4-max it looks like a pretty incredible deal. Time will tell to see if it truly holds up to other mid-techs but right now it looks great.
Besides, it's just plain cool. I don't care if nearly all of the cutting I do can be done with a box cutter because those are boring. I have free income and get satisfaction from well made things.
The disconnect is pretty easy to understand at least. Yep, no one NEEDS a $360 knife we all know that. Humans have gotten along fine for thousands of years without powder steels and I'm sure you can live your life without ever buying into this. But because you don't need it or want it doesn't mean it isn't worth the money. We could even go on to justify collectors value but in this case I don't even think it is necessary because the numbers add up pretty easily.
Cold Steel contracts out all of its manufacturing, and this knife is 100% US made. A basic machine shop in the US is typically going to be running around $70/hour for their cost basis to cover labor, and indirect and direct overhead. Let's say they can make 1 knife per hour from raw material to finished product. So now we are at $70, then add material cost let's say $30 since this has G10, a powder steel and titanium which puts us at a total of $100. This shop now needs their cut which would be a 15-20% margin, so for simplicity let's say 20% bringing the total to $120 for JUST the knife. Now cold steel needs to sharpen it, package it and ship it and let's say they can do all of that for $10 bringing the total to $130.
Now they need to cover all of their overhead and development costs, site maintenance, marketing etc. So they are going to be selling to vendors at a minimum of a 50% mark up though I would honestly guess you are looking at a 100% markup at this point because retail is usually a tricky industry and you need to make some costly gambles where an entire line of products might not sell so the ones that do need to make up for it. So this brings the total to $260 for the cost to vendors who will usually slap on a 30-40% markup let's say giving you a grand total of $338-$364.
Now granted I'm really spit-balling all of these numbers and definitely flexing them to fit this example, but the point I'm trying to make is that yes while this knife might only be $30 worth of materials that is the smallest piece you are paying for. CNC machines are expensive to run, bits are expensive, the operators are skilled and have a high pay rate and finally the product changes hands multiple times and everyone needs to get paid along the way. You aren't getting ripped off because of this, that is just the reality of it.
Finally like a lot of people have said here, the best way to gauge something is compare it to the rest of the market and when you do that with the 4-max it looks like a pretty incredible deal. Time will tell to see if it truly holds up to other mid-techs but right now it looks great.
Besides, it's just plain cool. I don't care if nearly all of the cutting I do can be done with a box cutter because those are boring. I have free income and get satisfaction from well made things.
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I agree that the price is totally fair, considering all the factors involved. In fact, this will be my first ever over-$200 knife purchase. Demko design? Tri-Ad lock? 20CV steel? Big and beefy? USA made? $360? Shut up and take my money (as soon as my piggy bank is full enough )!
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RamZar
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Haven't posted in this thread in a while.
Will there be just one color for the G-10?
I know the MSRP is $599.99 but what's the typical street price? I've seen $360-$400 but is that typical?
Will it be shipping to dealers in June 2015?
Where it says that the 4-Max is a "Signature Edition Custom Classic" does it mean it's limited edition and if so what's the run quantity?
Is this the first U.S.-made Cold Steel knife?
Will there be just one color for the G-10?
I know the MSRP is $599.99 but what's the typical street price? I've seen $360-$400 but is that typical?
Will it be shipping to dealers in June 2015?
Where it says that the 4-Max is a "Signature Edition Custom Classic" does it mean it's limited edition and if so what's the run quantity?
Is this the first U.S.-made Cold Steel knife?
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Even though this knife hits all the right buttons - Tri-Ad, 4 inch blade, 20-CV, US made - I'm not sure how wide of an audience it will serve.
At $360 / $599 MSRP it's competing with the Large Sebenza 21, the Strider SMF and the Hinderer XM24.
All of those knives weigh around the 4-6 ounce mark while the 4Max weighs 9 ounces.
The weight alone is going to close off a lot of the audience.
I'm tempted to say that this knife might take some market away from Medford, but as it is still a Cold Steel branded production knife I'm not sure if it will. Plus, it's not offered in the framelock flipper configuration that is currently very popular. For some, the price difference between a basic Medford and the 4Max might not be significant enough to justify the 4Max if an extra hundred dollars or so will get a Praetorian.
The knife won't have the cachet of the CRK, Strider and Hinderer brands either, even though it has a similar price point.
At $360 / $599 MSRP it's competing with the Large Sebenza 21, the Strider SMF and the Hinderer XM24.
All of those knives weigh around the 4-6 ounce mark while the 4Max weighs 9 ounces.
The weight alone is going to close off a lot of the audience.
I'm tempted to say that this knife might take some market away from Medford, but as it is still a Cold Steel branded production knife I'm not sure if it will. Plus, it's not offered in the framelock flipper configuration that is currently very popular. For some, the price difference between a basic Medford and the 4Max might not be significant enough to justify the 4Max if an extra hundred dollars or so will get a Praetorian.
The knife won't have the cachet of the CRK, Strider and Hinderer brands either, even though it has a similar price point.
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Would you get an XM-24 at that price? I was given to understand you can really only get them for that price if you're civil defence or military, while civilians have to pay secondhand market prices which are quite... unreasonable.