.40 Cal Vs Animals

EmsRescueGuy

EmsRescueGuy

Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
1,067
I will be carrying this summer during some out door excursions and my only two Carry guns are an older SW J frame (38 sp) and a Kahr K40. I know the 40 cal has a good reputation as a man stopper but i havent heard much about it as it pertains to animals.


Does anyone have experience With .40 cal as a defensive arm against 4 legged predators or as a "survival" hunting arm (I am not planning on hunting but just in case).

I am specifically interested if anyone has heard of it being used against Bears.

Funds permitting I may be adding a 3 inch .357 to my collection and/or a glock 23C. but this may not be any time soon.
 
from what i have read and from people i have talked to, a .40 is a bit small against large animals. not enough speed or force to penetrate and cause enough trauma to stop an animal.

even as a manstopper it has severe limitations, as do all service calibers. without a brain or spine shot, there is what is known as the "dead man's ten seconds". the brain doesnt know the body is already dead and can continue to fight for about ten seconds. a lot of damage can be done in ten seconds.

even magnum calibers will have problems with bears and mt lions. if you are limited to a pistol, i would suggest at least .357. or if you dont mind the extra size and weight, .44 mag or .45 lc.
 
When I was a young reserve police officer, my FTO and I were cruising some backroads and a deer jumped out of the bushes. We hit it, and broke one of its legs. My FTO pulled down the 12 gague, and shot it in the head, point blank, w/ Buckshot. The deer dropped, and he put the shotgun away. We were about to pick it up to move it off the road (and call the game warden), when it stood up (without a face, which was creepy), and my training officer pulled out his Glock .40 and dropped it with two rounds - end of story. He also told me that his brother filled his doe tag w/ a .40 during the last deer season. I personally would be carrying a 45 long colt, or 454 Casul in case of Bear, but the .40 is a pretty good round for standard frame pistol.
 
Maybe it was just the "Dead Deer's 10 Seconds." Perhaps you should just carry the 12 Gague!
 
EmsRescueGuy said:
I will be carrying this summer during some out door excursions and my only two Carry guns are an older SW J frame (38 sp) and a Kahr K40. I know the 40 cal has a good reputation as a man stopper but i havent heard much about it as it pertains to animals.


Does anyone have experience With .40 cal as a defensive arm against 4 legged predators or as a "survival" hunting arm (I am not planning on hunting but just in case).

I am specifically interested if anyone has heard of it being used against Bears.

Funds permitting I may be adding a 3 inch .357 to my collection and/or a glock 23C. but this may not be any time soon.
Click to expand...


If you would care for some friendly advice get the plain 23 and not the one with the comps. I had one and hated it, the fireball shooting out the top of the gun and the added blast and noise was very bothersome. IMO it did not make nearly enough difference in recoil and muzzle flip to make up for it's shortcomings. I love glocks and the 23 is a damn fine gun but I think the 357 revolver is a much more versatile woods loafing gun with the ability to load shot cartridges, 38 specials, or full house 357s or any combination of the 3. Chris
 
Thanks Chris I have fired both the 23 (wich is my brothers EDC) and the 23C I am still debating but I also wonder about the C in "field conditions" any extra hole is an extra spot for gunk

I am probably going to go with the .357 at some point (a model 60) 3 inch bore. My reasoning is the same as you stated, the versitility. i like the idea of loading the first chamber with Shot in great for snakes etc. .plus the fact that my girlfriend loves my current Model 60 (38) and doesent like the Kahr and since she often accompanies me I would rather have something she would use Just in case.

I will still probably carry the Kahr this summer No matter what it is better than Bare hands or a knife against any predator.
 
The "C" isn't great for much other than competition, the model 22 (.40) is a nice pistol, thats what I used to carry - no complaints. At night, you really don't want the big fireball, and when the adrenaline is pumping, I don't think you'll notice the recoil difference. I guess it all comes down to personal preference, and I'm sure you'll make a good choice!

Runningboar - how are ya Smoke? I'm headed to PLDC shortly (about time). Any word on the E8 look?
 
If You Want a good Laugh go to the Smith and Wesson Web Site and check out their "Survival Kits"
 
I posted this before but it's still funny...I was hunting wild boar in Arkansas Ozarks with my father-in-law....About 4:30 in the afternoon he saw one in a valley and shot it with a Weatherby 30-06 at about 150 yards and it dropped like a sack of ball peen hammers. We took about 15 minutes getting to it and another 5 or so talking about the shot while we were standing right next to it...I'd say about a 150-180 lbs. My father-in-law took out his Buck Pathfinder and stuck it low in the throat to cape it for a trophy because it had great tusk's.

You know what happened next??????

The boar let out a scream (horrible sound by the way) and got up and ran off with his knife....never saw either again even though we searched till dark....I swear it was dead till this day and my father-in-law says so too.
 
Yes the 'survival kits' I had to see to believe !!! In the shooting/hunting forums the question "is a ---- good enough for a charging bear ? " is one of the most often asked !!! Yes I carry in the woods and it's a 40 .I am in black bear country and have met them face to face [10' away ] and they ignored me !! Black bear attacks are very rare ! The gun is for rabid animals, feral dogs, packs of coyotes, feral people. As a hunting round the 40 and the equivalent 45 acp lacks good penetration for the larger animals like deer or bear , a 10mm [or 41 mag]would be a good bit better .I've been carrying a 40 for about 14 years now and it's taken many a feral dog and woodchuck .I find no difference from the 45acp.Both are very fine rounds but lack really good penetration.There was a very good article written by a guide and he has seen HUNDREDS of black bear shot with various handguns.His conclusion was to be effective the minimum is 10mm ir 41 mag !!!
 
man the survival kits are so funny. Anyways I forgot there was some caliber that was called the "short and wimpy" I think it was the S&W 10mm? or was it the 40? I don't remember. Isn't the .45 acp a good round? sure its not good at penetrating armor but its impact/mass/stopping power I remember earned its reputation.
 
From what you have to choose from I would take the .38 Spl for sure and load it up with Cor Bons +p+ ammo. I have a thing about auto's in the muck and crap of woods walking that creeps me out. From personal experience I have had para ord that jammed up while hiking and a glock 17 (long slide) so never again with the auto's in the woods. Plenty of people have been found dead in AK with a .44 or .357 in hand as well. For best defense against the bear wear a bell, make noise, keep alert and carry an Super Redhawk (Alaskan if you can swing it) with 3 .454 hotties by Garrett or Buffalo and 3 rounds of 45 LC in cambers 1 thru 3.

If I had to carry an AUto in the woods ever again it would be a HKUSP45.
 
The Chef said:
From what you have to choose from I would take the .38 Spl for sure and load it up with Cor Bons +p+ ammo. I have a thing about auto's in the muck and crap of woods walking that creeps me out. From personal experience I have had para ord that jammed up while hiking and a glock 17 (long slide) so never again with the auto's in the woods. Plenty of people have been found dead in AK with a .44 or .357 in hand as well. For best defense against the bear wear a bell, make noise, keep alert and carry an Super Redhawk (Alaskan if you can swing it) with 3 .454 hotties by Garrett or Buffalo and 3 rounds of 45 LC in cambers 1 thru 3.

If I had to carry an AUto in the woods ever again it would be a HKUSP45.
Click to expand...

Since this is an older 38 Its not rated for +p. I keep them in it for home defense but im not sure if i would risk +p+

I agree with the whole paying attention and making noise, I am looking into the whole "Bear Bell" Thing

As far as the Super red Hawk, I am talking concealed carry here, and i will probably be carrying the same gun in towns and public areas.

If I were going To AK I would probably go for A Redhawk in 454 or mabey .480

TBAG Thats a Funny story, I have heard of this with many animals especially with head shots that deflect off sculls, this happened to a kid i know with a 45 black powder rifle on a deer. Only he had put his tag on it and it ran away with the tag (someone else shot it later and was nice enough to give it back to him)

I am glad for your sake no one was injured by the boar.
 
The Chef said:
Plenty of people have been found dead in AK with a .44 or .357 in hand as well. For best defense against the bear wear a bell, make noise, keep alert.
Click to expand...

Chef, we have all heard these stories of people pumping a bear full of shots from a pistol and still being killed.
I'm sorry, but these are Urban Legends.

Bear attacks and Deaths resulting have been very well recorded in North America. The only recorded human death in the past several decades (north america) involving shots fired was this one:
Killed while hiking on the Funny River Trail near Soldotna, Alaska. Investigators found bear blood at the scene, and determined that Cates fired two shots with his rifle scoring at least one hit. The bear was never found.

Fatality from bear attack is pretty far down on the scale.
Lightening strikes kill far more people each year.
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lls/fatalities_us.html


Bear and Mountain Lion attacks are EXTREMELY rare.

source data:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_decade

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/04/0424_060424_bears.html

http://www.southeasternoutdoors.com/wildlife/fatal-wildlife-attacks.html

http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-fatal-bear-attacks-in-north-america-by-decade

For best defense against the bear wear a bell, make noise, keep alert.
chef

wise words
 
kevshin21 said:
man the survival kits are so funny. Anyways I forgot there was some caliber that was called the "short and wimpy" I think it was the S&W 10mm? or was it the 40? I don't remember. Isn't the .45 acp a good round? sure its not good at penetrating armor but its impact/mass/stopping power I remember earned its reputation.
Click to expand...

Probably the 40 since it is esentially a short 10mm
 
There is alot to be said about energy transfer to your target. Kinetic energy is 1/2 mass x velocity^2. Velocity would truly give you an edge over a change in mass if you could equate it to energy transfered to the target. Many people get locked into velocity numbers but velocity will not do you any good if you are drilling nice clean holes in your target. At close range, the heavier, slower loads tend to yield most, if not, all of their energy to the target. That is why the .45 ACP was and is a very effective weapon at close range.

It is like someone throwing a rock at you, from a given distance, as hard as they can vs. throwing a brick at you as hard as they can from that same distance. The rock will likely hit you and bounce off in another direction therefore retaining some of its initial energy. The brick will travel slower but will yield most if not all of its energy to you.

If high velocity bullets do not fragment on impact or hit something to make them fragment, they will likely pass through without yielding much of their energy to your target. A slower more massive bullet does not have to fragment to yield most of its energy.

I was truly saddened by the military chosing to go with the PC friendly 9 mm N.A.T.O. round over the .45 ACP for this reason. ( I know I will probably be flamed for that statement.)

That said, I would opt for the .40 caliber. I own both, a Glock 23 and Ruger .357 revolver, and based on my experience would take the .40 caliber.
 
Skunk While your info is great and thorough as usual I did notice that most of these articles spoke of the infrequency of FATAL :eek: bear attacks. I think I would like to avoid Any bear attacks at all:)

And as I said I figure a 40 or even a 38 gives me better odds than nothing,

And I really dont see this as a likley scenario for me to be in but I believe in the old adage of Hope for the best but Prepare for the worst
 
kevshin21 said:
http://www.defensedevices.com/bearpepspray.html maybe this might work? it comes with a free holster too!!
Click to expand...

From what I've read it works, I carry a can on my trips but I haven't had to use it before. I found it supriseing though that if you spray it it can attract bears after the fact so only use it if you have to and move on.

If your thinking of bringing a firearm what MORIMOTOM suggested would be my choices or as someone else said 12ga. and slugs would work well.

Helle
 
I mean this in a nice way but: While realizing that money is an issue, what is your life or the life of your lady worth. Possibly you could work a little OT, sell a few collectables, get her to chip in, or if all else fails, borrow a big bore revolver when you go out in that country. If I were seriously going into bear country and had concerns about my safety, I would go with a very large caliber pistol. 44 mag would be a bear minimum (pun intended). Short barreled shotgun with slugs? too heavy? Give out the bux and get what you need before you go my friend. Then come back with pics to post.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top