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420 HC vs 154 CM
- Thread starter Walt Welch
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Lots. Do a search for these two steels, and you will find several discussions about their merits. Walt
The Magician
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The 154cm is more of a premium steel. It will hold an edge longer, but be harder to sharpen. The 420HC is okay. It will need to be sharpened more often, but will be easier. Just a matter of personal preference.
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Brian
The first knife was probably used to cut stuff.
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Brian
The first knife was probably used to cut stuff.
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You are talking apples and oranges here. 154CM is a premium grade, ball bearing quality stainless steel. 420HC is barely adequate as a blade material. The only reason factories use it is because it is easy to stamp out and machine without wearing down their machinery.
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Danbo, soul brother of Rambo
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Danbo, soul brother of Rambo
I haven't used the 154cm version but I love the 420HC. The action is amazing on this knife. For the money it is impossible to beat. Look in the exchange forums under dealers. On the second page of the thread, Mike Turber is blowing out inventory and you should still be able to pick of the 420HC version for $39.99. The 154cm version is probably a better choice though but I just didn't want to shell out the extra $25.00. If you have the budget, I would shell out the extra cash.
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If you do most of your heavier cutting around the house and only some incidental cutting when you are away and if you generally keep your hone handy the 420HC will not be a significant inconvenience. It will be easy to keep very sharp.
If it is inconvenient for you to touch up your edge on a steel and/or hone you will find the longer edge-holding of the 154CM to be a significant advantage.
If it is inconvenient for you to touch up your edge on a steel and/or hone you will find the longer edge-holding of the 154CM to be a significant advantage.
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If you use a good sharpening system then 154CM is a dodle to sharpen, not noticibly harder to do than 420HC, it just takes a little longer because the steel is far more wear resistant.
The ONLY advantage to the ELU is that 420HC is VERY rust resistant.
Yes its cheaper, but to me the massive loss in performance makes 420HC a POOR choice.
A 154CM blade will hold an edge at least twice as long if not significantly longer.
My 154CM EDC in a trial use cut and cut and cut... I used it to make some fuzz sticks to light a barbaque. It was no longer razor sharp after this (a lot of pine cut up)but the edge showed no sighn of visable wear. Well I have done this before with a 420HC Buck lite knife of the same size and it blunted after half the work was done. Not only was is very difficult to continue, but the edge showed noticable spots of wear.
Get the 154CM model and never look back.
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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
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The ONLY advantage to the ELU is that 420HC is VERY rust resistant.
Yes its cheaper, but to me the massive loss in performance makes 420HC a POOR choice.
A 154CM blade will hold an edge at least twice as long if not significantly longer.
My 154CM EDC in a trial use cut and cut and cut... I used it to make some fuzz sticks to light a barbaque. It was no longer razor sharp after this (a lot of pine cut up)but the edge showed no sighn of visable wear. Well I have done this before with a 420HC Buck lite knife of the same size and it blunted after half the work was done. Not only was is very difficult to continue, but the edge showed noticable spots of wear.
Get the 154CM model and never look back.
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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
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Danbo; you said:
154 CM is cleaner these days, due to the adoption of Argon Oxygen Decarburization, but it is not ball bearing grade. An example of a steel which IS ball bearing grade is Timken Latrobe BG42 VIM-VAR steel. This is cleaned using the Vacuum Induction Melting-Vacuum Arc Remelting process, and is cleaner than 154 CM.
Hope this helps,
Walt
154 CM is cleaner these days, due to the adoption of Argon Oxygen Decarburization, but it is not ball bearing grade. An example of a steel which IS ball bearing grade is Timken Latrobe BG42 VIM-VAR steel. This is cleaned using the Vacuum Induction Melting-Vacuum Arc Remelting process, and is cleaner than 154 CM.
Hope this helps,
Walt
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Another example of a ball bearing grade steel is my personal favorite steel, 52100.
Cliff Stamp
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The General:
It is also has a significantly greater impact toughness and ductility.
-Cliff
It is also has a significantly greater impact toughness and ductility.
-Cliff
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But its a 3" folder...
Not an axe!
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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
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A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
Not an axe!
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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
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HJK! LMFAO!
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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
------------------
Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
Cliff Stamp
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Wayne, it does not matter what kind of blade it is, the durability level controls the functional geometry. A higer durability allows a more acute edge given the same set of tasks. Or given a set geometry, a more durable edge allows a wider scope of use.
As for chopping, assisted chopping is often done with very small blades, and as for axes, a wood cutting axe with have a much thinner edge geometry than the Camillus EDC. The only axes that you will see with edges ground as thick as that are either for root cutting or throwing as otherwise you are wasting cutting ability.
In regards to general cutting, there are lots of things that will quickly damage the edges on knives with low levels of ductility and impact toughness. For example, if you are cutting materials that are not NIB, odds are high that there is going to be a significant concentration of inclusions. Cut up rope that has been used and exposed to the elements for example, or breakdown used cardboard boxes.
Even cutting clean materials can also break apart edges with low durability. I have done long cutting sessions on clean cardboard 10 000 cm, and have seen several edges blunt by fracture. You have to consider the geometry of the very edge, we are talking about a very small piece of steel. Even if the edge is damaged to only 1/64", it will still be so blunt you can't cut much of anything with it.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 05-28-2001).]
As for chopping, assisted chopping is often done with very small blades, and as for axes, a wood cutting axe with have a much thinner edge geometry than the Camillus EDC. The only axes that you will see with edges ground as thick as that are either for root cutting or throwing as otherwise you are wasting cutting ability.
In regards to general cutting, there are lots of things that will quickly damage the edges on knives with low levels of ductility and impact toughness. For example, if you are cutting materials that are not NIB, odds are high that there is going to be a significant concentration of inclusions. Cut up rope that has been used and exposed to the elements for example, or breakdown used cardboard boxes.
Even cutting clean materials can also break apart edges with low durability. I have done long cutting sessions on clean cardboard 10 000 cm, and have seen several edges blunt by fracture. You have to consider the geometry of the very edge, we are talking about a very small piece of steel. Even if the edge is damaged to only 1/64", it will still be so blunt you can't cut much of anything with it.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 05-28-2001).]
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So you consider both ATS-34 and 154CM to be low in durability? I have found that my M2 blades hold an edge longer, but my ATS-34 and 154CM blades have held up FAR better than my 440a and 420HC knives, even when chopping and performing high pressure cutting into wood.
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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
------------------
Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
Cliff Stamp
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Wayne :
Crucibles 420XL (which is 420 with a modified alloy content, same %C), has an impact toughness (Charpy C-notch) over twice that of 440C, it also has twice the corrosion resistance and a significantly increased ductility.
On the other hand, 440C (ATS-34 etc.) have a slightly greater compaction resistance due to the extra 3-4 RC points, which also increases the strength and along with the extra carbides will produce over twice the wear resistance of 420XL.
As to which makes a better knife, it just depends on what you are doing and how you are going about doing it. The 420XL knife for example will take far greater impacts without breaking (gross blade failure as well as edge), will have a much greater resistance to pitting and surface corrosion, and can handle a lot of abrasive edge work (scraping) without chipping due to the high ductility.
-Cliff
Crucibles 420XL (which is 420 with a modified alloy content, same %C), has an impact toughness (Charpy C-notch) over twice that of 440C, it also has twice the corrosion resistance and a significantly increased ductility.
On the other hand, 440C (ATS-34 etc.) have a slightly greater compaction resistance due to the extra 3-4 RC points, which also increases the strength and along with the extra carbides will produce over twice the wear resistance of 420XL.
As to which makes a better knife, it just depends on what you are doing and how you are going about doing it. The 420XL knife for example will take far greater impacts without breaking (gross blade failure as well as edge), will have a much greater resistance to pitting and surface corrosion, and can handle a lot of abrasive edge work (scraping) without chipping due to the high ductility.
-Cliff
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Interesting, how does this 420XL compare for edge retention in low stress work?
Oh and is 420XL the same as 420HC?
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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
Oh and is 420XL the same as 420HC?
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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
Cliff Stamp
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Wayne :
I have not used it, so I could not say for sure. I picked it as an example simply as I had the specs for it on hand and it is very similar to steels that I have used (AISI 420). Anyway, it has about half the wear resistance of 440C, and it is about 4-5 RC points lower so it will have a slightly lower strength and compression resistance. Based on that I would assume that the edge will roll much quicker (a multiple easily, not a few percent) so you will lose that razor edge sharpness faster. As well the 440C blade will stay aggressive at this level longer once it does blunt because of the higher carbide content.
420HC, is AISI 420 with extra carbon (how much is not exactly constant), 420XL has the same amount of carbon as AISI 420 but has a slightly altered alloy content and is made by a much cleaner process.
-Cliff
I have not used it, so I could not say for sure. I picked it as an example simply as I had the specs for it on hand and it is very similar to steels that I have used (AISI 420). Anyway, it has about half the wear resistance of 440C, and it is about 4-5 RC points lower so it will have a slightly lower strength and compression resistance. Based on that I would assume that the edge will roll much quicker (a multiple easily, not a few percent) so you will lose that razor edge sharpness faster. As well the 440C blade will stay aggressive at this level longer once it does blunt because of the higher carbide content.
420HC, is AISI 420 with extra carbon (how much is not exactly constant), 420XL has the same amount of carbon as AISI 420 but has a slightly altered alloy content and is made by a much cleaner process.
-Cliff
guy g
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Hi, we've all read the debates on steel,so here is my HO based on my knives and uses...
my BG42 user is in the closet because it held an edge only 50% as well as my Bucklite.ATS34 is real good, but after a weekend at home I have to sharpen either steel.Cant say any thing other than that.
guy g
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guy g,bcci lifetime member #1502
my BG42 user is in the closet because it held an edge only 50% as well as my Bucklite.ATS34 is real good, but after a weekend at home I have to sharpen either steel.Cant say any thing other than that.
guy g
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guy g,bcci lifetime member #1502