420 stainless..... is it that bad?

I

ichor

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Aug 27, 2002
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Sometime, in the last year, due to an accumulation of info I've read, heard, etc. I decided that 420 was not a particularly desirable steel, considering the choices available. Not totally sure why. Just one of those things that forms in your mind and, when someone asks you why you feel that way, you can't really say. Can't truly put your finger on it. Just an overall impression.

Maybe it's because it seems like so many companies have switched to 420 for knives that used to be made from AUS-8A (a not so high end steel that has served me quite well). Some of these companies make high quality knives and are quite well known. You can't help but notice that some models, virtually the same knife, are a good 20% to 50% less expensive (some even more). One can't help but wonder if a steel that is that much cheaper to buy and use, for knife producers/makers, is it really good enough??

Is it really that inferior, or have I formed and opinion that needs some reevaluation???
 
You have hit upon a question that has bugged me since the time I started reading here. I have come to the conclusion that a knife w/ a good overall design and an "inferior" steel is still worth buying. There are knives that I wont buy, no matter what blade material is used. AUS-6M is a good example of the former point. The knives I have used w/ this steel have been good designs and had respectable edge holding. They were also under $50. 420HC also works well, and has an attractive price point. I've bought some knives for much more and disliked them the whole time. They had excellent blade steels, but the design left something to be desired.
 
I don't think you're necessarily irrational in buying a knife from X or Y steel. There are uses for which I just want a knife that's safe and minimally performant, but beyond that, there's no need to spend a lot more.

On the other hand, do note the relative advantages and disadvantages: on the plus side, inexpensive, stain resistant, easy to manufacture, on the negative side, not very wear resistant, soft and weak. The only other thing I worry about: if they've gone *this* inexpensive, where else have the cut corners ... hopefully not the lock, for example.

Anyway, last thing to note, there's 420, and then there's 420. 420J2 is not the same thing as 420HC. One is a real step up from the other.



Joe
 
Originally posted by Joe Talmadge


Anyway, last thing to note, there's 420, and then there's 420. 420J2 is not the same thing as 420HC. One is a real step up from the other.



Joe [/B]
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Unfortunately, many time the particular 420 used is not stated and is sometimes even kinda difficult (if not impossible) to find out.
 
I don't have time for a detailed response, so sorry if this is brief.

Steven Dick wrote an article in tac knives a while ago addressing this issue. He said that he'd take AUS-8, 440-C, D2, 440-V, or whatever! As long as you know how to sharpen,it isn't that big of a deal. I am paraphrasing, of course.

His point is a good one. Just remember though, that you have to decide what you want out of your knife,for the money. If edge holding is important to you, then AUS-6 is crap! But AUS-6 is a good choice if you don't mid sharpening more often and, say, need a really stainless steel. And a lower price too!

Most BFCers are really "into" knives, and typically know how to sharpen well, so that is why you see a prevalenceof desires for higher and higher end steels. Go on a car forum and you probably won't find a lot of fans of a 3 litre engine either! But for many, that is just fine.
 
This is taken from the AG Russel Steel Chart.

420
A stainless spring steel much used in inexpensive production knives from Taiwan. Very useful in tantos and other knives. Also should be outstanding for axe heads. If you use this steel you must have an analysis as it can range in Carbon content from 0.15 to 0.6% the balance is 1.0% Manganese and 12-14%

They also list a modified 420 with Carbon as .35 to .50 percent, Manganese and Chromium the same above and Nickel at .50 percent.
 
It's hard to generalize. The 420HC used in the Buck 110 and 112 has certainly proven itself useful over time. It has gotten decent quality knives into a lot of people's hands who might not otherwise have been able to afford them with "higher end" stainless steels.
 
you know, i've always had exactly the seem feeling about 420. in my opinion i grade it as follows:

420 (plain 420( = awful
420 J2 = poor
420 SZ = poor/average
420 HC = good


i think 420 should be reserved for throwing knives and for Made in Taiwan-knives. if i buy me a new knife, it must at least have 440- or AUS 6/8-steel, and preferably i like my knives with VG10, BG42 or ATS34.

d75
 
You touch on an excellent point.

One of the knives I owned was made out of the most mundane steel; it was a Kershaw Whirlwind.

What was the sharpest knife I've ever owned? The same Kershaw Whirlwind.

That knife had a bevel angle of less than 15 degrees. However, the guy who ground the bevel on that knife did it perfectly. The bevel was uniform front to back, and perfectly centered. With a fresh edge, it sliced paper more smoothly than my finest Microtech USSOCOM Tanto.

Now, after about three days of aggressively cutting cardboard, the edge deteriorated. However, with the Edgepro and a very fine waterstone, the edge came back quickly.

It is my belief that this knife is plain old 440A steel with a modest hardening, perhaps a 55 Rc.
 
From time to time we need to remind ourselves that there are qualities to knife blades other than edge retention. Blades made from softer steels like 420 are always more corrosion resistant and always easier to sharpen. Most of the time they are also tougher. Personally, I'd rather have camp knife made from 420 than from 154CM hardened to RC59. So it depends on the application. Steels aren't superior or inferior to one another. They are different with different strengths and weaknesses. Every knife is not a tactical folder.
 
AUS-6 is OK for me, but only if the design of the knife is good.

I don't like 420HC (it's just too soft), so I'm very unlikely to ever invest money in a normal 420 steel knife (of which the blade is presumably even softer than one made of 420HC).
 
I have a test knife from BUCK in 420HC and have to say that it outperformed my expectations......

I have always heard negative reports about this steel, but have come to the conclusion that it, like any other high carbon steel, will perform well if heat treated properly.......the one I have was given proper heat treat by Paul Bos!! :p :) :p

one thing I will note is that the one I have is NOT soft!
 
I think the problem is that not many 420 knives are heat treated by Paul Bos.

So while in theory 420 series St. steel can be made quite good, a good portion of the knives made with it do not get the best heat treat.
 
420HC is nice and I like it, but 420 and 420J2 for blade steel is crap. They make for alright liners and frames though.
 
The stuff sucks. Even on the higher end, .6% Carbon isn't enough to be fully hardenable. You can make do with .6 %C in non stainless steels due to differential heat treat methods, but with stainless, things get good at .8% and above. On the lower end, .35% isn't even worthy of being called steel. People who say it's good would probably be just as happy with a blade made from brass. For my part, you can throw AUS-6 and 440A in that same boat. If you want more toughness, starting out with crappy material isn't the answer. Use good steel and temper it to a lower RC value. If you want a lower cost steel, stick with non stainless high carbon steel. It will give you far more performance than 420 ever could when heat treated right.

Well, you did ask for opinions.
 
My problem with it is that it's too soft and weak (usually) to take and hold an edge at the low angles I usually sharpen at. I tend to sharpen at around 17 deg, and at that angle a steel has to be pretty tough to hold the edge for long, and to not suffer major deformation besides. All of the 420 grades except 420HC are abysmal crap, but 420HC is useful for some applications.
 
5160 and 1060 are both steels that have .6% carbon and I have not heard many complaints about these steels not being hardenable. 420HC (probably closer to .45% carbon) when heat treated correctly is not bad at all. Buck does a really nice job with this steel.
 
420HC seems to be able to heat treat well and take a great edge.
Kershaw and Camillus have 420HC products that doesn't receive that much complaints about how little they can hold the edge...
 
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