420hc Toughness

Steelhog

Steelhog

Joined
Jul 2, 2009
Messages
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Hey all – recently I posted a thread in the general section asking how tuff 420hc is in general. That thread got shut down (I believe because some people were giving somebody who posted a generic steel chart a hard time) shortly after the thread was started. Regardless I would like to continue the discussion here specific to Bucks 420hc toughness. During that thread someone posted a steel chart made by Larrin who seems to be well respected on the forums. His steel chart not only identifies 420hc as tuff – it looks ridiculously tuff. If I am looking at these charts correctly at 57-58 / 420hc looks to be nearly 3v tuff and way tougher than something like 1095 or A2. Is this correct? And if so why is this not more broadly marketed as a key attribute of 420hc?

stainless-toughness-5-7-2021.jpg

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Yep I find Bucks 420hc with the grind they use to be a great - add that to how stainless it is and what appears to be a way, way tougher steel than 1095 what's not to like. Not sure why everyone seems to hate 420hc if these attributes are true.
 
I think it’s because of confusion from the past steel that was used like 440c had a reputation for being hard to sharpen then the change to 425m and some who didn’t like it and then finally 420hc there was some who thought it was cheap steel like some other lesser 420 grades. Through all this a lot of the general public don’t know about the changes when or why. And they didn’t know about Paul Bos and his fabulous heat treatment that separates it from most other 420 steels. I’ve had discussions with some people who were very ill informed that wouldn’t change their mind no matter the facts. They were hanging on to hearsay info from other mis informed people decades ago.
And with many online sites with incorrect info going around it’s no wonder there’s confusion. I’m just glad I found out for myself how good Bucks 420hc is.
 
steelhog said:
Hey all – recently I posted a thread in the general section asking how tuff 420hc is in general. That thread got shut down (I believe because some people were giving somebody who posted a generic steel chart a hard time) shortly after the thread was started. Regardless I would like to continue the discussion here specific to Bucks 420hc toughness. During that thread someone posted a steel chart made by Larrin who seems to be well respected on the forums. His steel chart not only identifies 420hc as tuff – it looks ridiculously tuff. If I am looking at these charts correctly at 57-58 / 420hc looks to be nearly 3v tuff and way tougher than something like 1095 or A2. Is this correct? And if so why is this not more broadly marketed as a key attribute of 420hc?
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420HC is the INFI of stainless steels :) The other one not to disregard is good old AEB-L. AEB-L is even harder, this one is really close to 3V in both toughness and edge holding.

Why they are not marketed accordingly ? Don't know really, not long enough in this hobby, but I'm guessing the "Toughness train" is pretty recent. I don't mind though, I find less aggressive marketing actually attractive.

Roland.
 
Yep it is interesting. People (even on Blade forums) talk about 420 like its total garbage. And perhaps from some less reputable company's it is. But good 420hc seems to have some really good attributes (ok to good edge retention, very stainless, easy to sharpen and appears to be super tuff beyond things like 1095. The super tuff part really changes the equation. People often praise non-stainless steels like 1095 and 01 for these same attributes but are fine with :poop: on 420hc when it appears 420hc is tougher and stainless.

Look I love 1095 and O1 also but I just don't get the fan fair for those steels and the general hate for 420hc........
 
key points to consider. toughness is how much it can deform before breaking...im oversimplifiying it for quicker typing.

edge retention or edge stability is another key factor that is very important. 440c does better on edge retention than 420hc. reason we see some folks cheer Bucks 440c stuff and maybe not so excited about 420hc stuff.

this isn't science but to me 420hc reminds me of 1095 on easy reprofiling and sharpening. seems less to me on my use of edge retention, but has the added benefits of far better corrosion resistance and better toughness. so its tradeoffs that have to be considered on a larger knife taking more blows and impacts rather than just slicing stuff.

small folder where maybe where massive toughness and maybe even limited corrosion resistance isn't always so needed or desired...so thats where better edge retention is a desirable trait. so other steels would be more desired for that application. not for everyone though, as we know lots of folks want 1095, they like it and are happy with the tradeoffs.

lastly we can't forget geometry and how important that is.
 
So I'm not sure what the technical term but were would 420hc rank in terms of its resistance to chipping? Would that still be considered toughness or edge stability?
 
steelhog said:
So I'm not sure what the technical term but were would 420hc rank in terms of its resistance to chipping? Would that still be considered toughness or edge stability?
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the good doctor has written an entire article on this and explains exactly what your asking.....

knifesteelnerds.com

How Chipping of Edges Happens at a Microscopic Level - Knife Steel Nerds

Thanks to Warren Krywko, Joseph Cannell, and Timothy Thomas for becoming Knife Steel Nerds Patreon supporters! Your contributions will help fund more research on knife steels. To discuss chipping we have to start with fracture mechanics of materials, and in this case steel. Chipping itself is...
knifesteelnerds.com knifesteelnerds.com

enjoy the read.
 
420HC is mostly talked about as a poor steel because 1 comparative to most other newer moderns steels it can be argued as an "inferior" steel and 2 it has a reputation in recent years that has been formed around it's use in cheap poorly made knives which do not show what it is capable of. I personally avoid 420HC from most makers because I don't trust them to put the work into the steel that someone like Buck does. Has for 420HC's general resilience in a Buck knife I can't same anything beyond my experience with it which is positive but I also do not put my knives through a lot of torture.
 
jbmonkey said:
key points to consider. toughness is how much it can deform before breaking...im oversimplifiying it for quicker typing.
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If a knife can be bent into a curved shape and then, when the pressure is taken off, regain its perfectly straight form, is that a sign of the knife's "toughness"? Serious question. I'm trying to understand what is meant by the word "toughness."

Note: On Preparedmind101, Chris Tanner baton-ed an LT Wright knife into a log with a knot in it. The blade bent into a curved shape around the knot. When the knife was freed from the log, it regained its normal shape.
 
Mister Coffee said:
If a knife can be bent into a curved shape and then, when the pressure is taken off, regain its perfectly straight form, is that a sign of the knife's "toughness"? Serious question. I'm trying to understand what is meant by the word "toughness."

Note: On Preparedmind101, Chris Tanner baton-ed an LT Wright knife into a log with a knot in it. The blade bent into a curved shape around the knot. When the knife was freed from the log, it regained its normal shape.
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In real use, for me at least, toughness is mostly about resistance to chipping, see Larrin’s article that was quoted above.

The elasticity experiment that you mention has also been done by others (e.g. Busse), but I feel doesn‘t have much knife application in my use, for folders in particular.
 
3V has ~40% better edge retention compared to 420HC, and 3V isn't known for it's amazing edge retention. Instead it is loved because it has incredible toughness with acceptable edge retention.

I think the combination of a stainless steel that is very tough and has "poor" edge retention is just a bit boring these days. AEB-L, 14c28n, etc are pretty cost effective, tough steels that gives much better edge retention than 420HC. I'm not sure why 420HC wasn't touted for it's toughness in the past though. Seems like a missed marketing opportunity.

Keep in mind that toughness and strength are also different. While 420HC is very tough, it often has poor strength because it is usually only heat treated to 57hc - 59hc (at least in my experience), while many other tough, stainless steels are regularly brought to the low to mid 60s.

420hc.JPG
 
Well... all I know is after a year of using a 420HC Chef's knife in daily use, it has held its edge substantially better than any other Chef's knife that I've bought in that price point, and that includes brands like J.A. Henkels and Wusthof.

I think 420HC gets a bad wrap because other 420HC knives can't hold a candle to Buck's BOS heat treated 420HC's.
 
Fixall said:
3V has ~40% better edge retention compared to 420HC, and 3V isn't known for it's amazing edge retention. Instead it is loved because it has incredible toughness with acceptable edge retention.

I think the combination of a stainless steel that is very tough and has "poor" edge retention is just a bit boring these days. AEB-L, 14c28n, etc are pretty cost effective, tough steels that gives much better edge retention than 420HC. I'm not sure why 420HC wasn't touted for it's toughness in the past though. Seems like a missed marketing opportunity.

Keep in mind that toughness and strength are also different. While 420HC is very tough, it often has poor strength because it is usually only heat treated to 57hc - 59hc (at least in my experience), while many other tough, stainless steels are regularly brought to the low to mid 60s.

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I agree with all you say. And like said above AEB-L, Nitro-V, etc. are underrated, too.

But i want to add another dimension: knife geometry and purpose. For example, I have a Buck 110 with 20CV (KC), and feel it's pretty much the perfect configuration. Then again, I have a 124 in 420HC coming, and it should be a great match, full tang and all. I’ll treat it just like a stainless version of my Jack Hammer, and it cost less than half.
 
ferider said:
I agree with all you say. And like said above AEB-L, Nitro-V, etc. are underrated, too.

But i want to add another dimension: knife geometry and purpose. For example, I have a Buck 110 with 20CV (KC), and feel it's pretty much the perfect configuration. Then again, I have a 124 in 420HC coming, and it should be a great match, full tang and all. I’ll treat it just like a stainless version of my Jack Hammer.
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100%. I'll take good geometry for the task at hand over good steel (within reason) just about every time.
 
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