440 Stainless Steel?

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Fatstrat

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Been looking at some blades for future project (after current one finished). Some on eBay made of 440 Stainless. Seem like I recall hearing that stainless makes a pretty knife that won't hold an edge. Much like the Pakistan knives. Am I correct?
 
There are 3 grades of 440 stainless, A, B, and C. C was a standard amongst custom knives for years, though it has been surperceded by more modern steels in many makers' eyes. It isn't a "bad" steel.
440 A and B are 'lesser" grades in terms of edge holding, though they have other properties like their stain resistance which makes them popular on dive knives and other "corrosive" situations.
When a blade is marked only "440" without the letter, it is usually A or , less likely, B.
 
440C makes a serviceable blade, that is easy to sharpen.

There are much better steels out there that are every bit as easy to work. You are going to spend between 20 - 100 hours making this knife. A few bucks of steel cost is a small investment to make in the eventual performance of your knife.

Rob!
 
So what are these much "better steels" Rob? Hunting knives made of 440-C with a vacuum chamber heat treat and then cryo treatment are excellent. Ats-34 has a bit better edge holding but does rust easier as does 154-CM. and is great for collector knives. Yes 440-C is reasonable to sharpen and that too is one of the advantages of using it. I make 1 folder in 50 out of an all stainless steel not Damascus and that is 440-C. Years ago I sold many hunting knives and used some of the other steels as well. 440-C does a great job and under testing proves itself to be a most useful and functional steel. Home heat treating practices just don't give the same quality results. That old system of "yes I have a heat treat oven of my own and then I throw them into the deep freeze for a few days" isn't worth a darn in actual results compared with the right way for knives that are to to be used. Are you using a vacuum chamber and then giving a true cryogenic treatment? Not only does the hardness testing count but the flexibility of the steel at an acceptable hardness level which should be about 58-60 Rockwell for 440-C without it being brittle. Frank
 
Hmmm... Sorry Frank

Didn't mean to offend.

Actually, 154CM has better corrosion resistance than 440C - not to mention improved edge retention. CPMS30V and CPM154 are even better in their own ways.

You are right that any of them should be heat treated properly for best results. I believe we heat treat blades properly - except on the occasion that a customer asks for something I don't recommend - and in that case - for that customer - it becomes proper doesn't it.

I didn't mean to upset anyone about a favorite steel. Fatsrat asked a question and I gave it my honest best answer. It wasn't intended as an attack on anyone.

Rob!
 
Do you use a vacuum chamber and then a true cryogenic process? If not your those steels you mentioned will not be better than the 440-C done that way Hey you're not offending me, and I don't expect what I'm saying is offending you. What I'm saying though is that the proper heat treating makes a huge difference in results. Yes, as you can read I had all my for use knifes done by heat treaters that knew what they were doing. Frank
 
If you want a reliable knife that gets sharp quickly and stays that way, 440C is a great steel. S30V might outperform in edge holding, but it's also a pain to sharpen compared to 440C. I believe the 440C will also give you higher impact resistance and toughness.

440C is also easier to take to a high polish than ATS-34, 154CM, S30V, etc. I hear CPM154 is nice to polish, but I haven't done it yet. I'd like to see the tests on corrosion resistance, the higher chromium in 440C should make it a better candidate for resisting rust than 154CM.
 
Fom Crucible's Data sheet:

"Crucible 154 CM is a modification of 440C
martensitic stainless steel to which molybdenum
has been added. 154 CM has better corrosion
resistance, better wear resistance and better
hot-hardness than 440C. For knifemakers, it
offers better edge retention than 440C. It also
has higher attainable hardness and better
through hardening characteristics than 440C."

If you read the spec sheets for CPMS30V, they are the same and more.

Those spec sheets as well as personal experience and customer preferences are the reasons I choose those steels. By the way, 440C also benefits from good heat treat getting 1 - 1 1/2 point of hardness from cryo.

Proper heat treat is critical to the performance of any blade. I don't think there's much argument about that.

Rob!​
​
 
Thanks for the replies. So if I buy a 440C blade,is it already heat treated?
BTW: What kind of stainless do the Pakistan knives use? I've got a hunting knife I bought at Smokey Mountain Knife Works about 10 years ago. Carried around the country for minimal self defense in a semi truck for years. Great LOOKING knife. Maked "Stainless Pakistan" and "Ole Smokey". Had it sharpened at a knife shop and it's pretty sharp. But hasn't been used for much of anything to dull it. Are all Paikistan knives of poor quality steel? It appears of better qualty than alot of them I've seen.
 
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Probably, most finished blade blanks that you buy would be heat treated. I think it would make sense to ask that question before purchasing, and the seller may also know the grade of 440 it is. Like Fitzo said though, it's most likely 440A.

Generalizing is dangerous - even foolish - but maybe it's not out of line to say that Pakistan knives are not of equal quality to US-made knives. You can find many good quality blade blanks at any of the knifemaker supply houses, and you should be able to trust that they're selling you a decent product. At least they'll know what they're selling and their description will be accurate.

Like anything else, "you get what you pay for" and given the dependence we have on our tools I think it makes sense to buy the best we can afford, rather than shop around for the best price. With accurate descriptions, you can then compare prices.

But all that aside -- why not just design your own blade, sweat out its shaping, send it to a reputable heat treater and finish it up yourself? I'm sure you'll find that your pride of accomplishment in the end will overcome the anguish of working the steel! :D

PS - in these discussions of the benefits of various steels, I always think how pleased some ice age guy would be with anything we use - even the lowliest imported knife. Having used a stone knife, I can assure you that any metal blade would be cause for celebration!
 
Thanks for the reply. I'm just kinda gettin my feet wet on knife making. Historically I'm more of a kitchen table gunsmith. I usually buy several broken (usually vintage) guns over the spring/summer and use them as winter projects to keep busy.
But due to the economy and the high cost of gunparts (I almost always end up w/more invested than finished project value), this year I'm trying my hand at knife making. Been shopping some already made blade to begin with. So far I have aquired 3 unissued Camillus WW-2 vintage USMC knife blades. I've always been a fan of that particular knife design and the steel used. It'll be awhile before I buy any modern made blades. So I'm just in a research mode for now. Thanks again.
 
I seriously doubt the pakistani blades were even 440a, and if they were they most certainly weren't heat treated properly. At least that was the case when they still caught my eye 20 years ago as a kid. Even 440A with a good HT can make a perfectly servicable blade, and quite tough for a stainless.
 
Many of the cheap knives I've seen and owned from smokey mountain were 420 stainless which is very cheap in the industrial world and far less available to us knifemakers. Every knife I've ever had in 420 had a very soft edge and needed sharpening after most any task.
 
AcridSaint said:
Many of the cheap knives I've seen and owned from smokey mountain were 420 stainless which is very cheap in the industrial world and far less available to us knifemakers. Every knife I've ever had in 420 had a very soft edge and needed sharpening after most any task.
Click to expand...

That's kinda what I figured. I checked SMKW website and they still sell the knife I have. For about $10. more than I paid 10 yrs ago. It's the "Ole Smokey ElDorado Skinner". Doesn't appear to be a cottage industry knife like most Pakistan knives seen at flea markets. But I'm sure the steel isn't anywhere near top quality. Thanks for the reply. I was just curious about it.
Been giving some thought to the grinding out my own blade suggestion. I worked in sheet metal fab for 20 years before becoming a truck driver. So I'm quite familar w/metal working. Actually played around at knife making years ago and made a few blades. But w/mild steel.
I've got a bench grinder & stationary belt sander. So making a blade out of good quality steel shouldn't be too much of a problem.
Couple Questions: Can any steel be be heat treated to make a good blade? Can you torch cut the basic shape when using high quality steel?
 
No and maybe. For steels there's a number of varieties of low carbon and stainless steels that won't harden enough to make a decent knife. Torches aren't recommended, basically you'll turn steel within a quarter inch of the torch into junk, it'll burn the carbon out and also require a number of normalizing cycles to get the steel in shape for hardening. If you use a plasma cutter though you may be able to get away with it if you grind off any discolored steel near the cut. Most well equipped knifemakers use bandsaws, but a sawzall/hacksaw and grinder work just fine for occasional hobby work.
 
The stationary belt grinder/sander is the tool of choice for most knife makers. You need high carbon steel at a minimum to make a good blade, That will torch cut but the area around the cut will need to be ground back a ways. Stainless steels cut very poorly with a torch. But, every steel has its great points and trade offs. The discussion of the best knife steel come around here all the time. Generally every one agrees that it depends on what you want it for. I personally like D2 for most of my knives. But, I would never use it for a real survival knife. I saw a picture where a press was used on a D2 knife and it cut 1/2 way through a 440c knife. Impressive, but, the D2 knife then shattered. D2 will hold a great edge, but snap way before 440c when used to pry. 5160 will flex farther than 440c before it reaches its elastic edge, but, t will rust and not keep an edge as well and so it goes.

But,From the sounds of this thread I would recommend getting a piece of flat ground stainless in 440c or a comparable steel like 154cm in the thickness and about the width you want your knife. Hacksaw it to semo close then grind it to shape with a course belt and files then smooth it up with finer belts, Use sand paper on small blocks to get it as really smooth and nice as you want then sent it off to a professional heat treater to have it hardened and tempered. They will use one of a variety of methods to keep the oxygen away from the steel in the process (place in a foil envelope, use a vacuum, or inert gas). You can usually have a cyro (super freeze) added to the ht. Most of the real true experts believe that most steels do not really gain much from this, IF they are HT correctly in the first place. There seems to be a bit of a question on steels with very high carbon content (around 1.5%) and benefit from cyro. Neither 440C of 154cm have this. Good luck Jim

Couple more suggestions. You might want to make a practice blade with mild steel to check out your design for grinding problems and practice. The for sale area has some good guys with good steel for sale. Most of the people there and here are as honest and friendly as it gets.
 
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