4th century bronze recipe?

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Jun 27, 1999
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I'm almost ready to do a bronze melt. I've got the copper, and I've got the tin, what I don't have is the percentages. Modern phosphor bronze is 95% copper and 5% tin. (No phosphorous?) I want to make a celtic leaf blade, and I want it to be as historically accurate as possible. Does anyone know a source that references alloy content from ancient weapons?
Thanks in advance.
 
Hey Oz, I was thinking 15% to 20% tin to copper content, the higher the tin content the harder the alloy. I confirmed this when I found this selection from an article on the MSM Encarta online encyclopedia:

"They may contain from 5 to 22 percent tin. When a tin bronze contains at least 10 percent tin, the alloy is hard and has a low melting point. Leaded tin bronzes, used for casting, contain 5 to 10 percent tin, 1.5 to 25 percent lead, and 0 to 4.5 percent zinc. Manganese bronze contains 39 percent zinc, 1 percent tin, and 0.5 to 4 percent manganese. Aluminum bronze contains 5 to 10 percent aluminum. Silicon bronze contains 1.5 to 3 percent silicon "

Guy
 
That's the problem, the celts didn't use what was absolutely the best alloy, or even a good one. I heard somewhere that they had examples that were 1-3% tin, plus some impurities. I'm going for as exact a replica as I can get. For the toughest bronze, I have several pounds of bearing bronze that I could use. That's looking very tempting, but it wouldn't win me any awards in an art/sci competition. :( Many of my family members are getting back into SCA, and I figured I'd join them, and I always wanted to make a few of these blades.
 
Hi,
Guy's info looks pretty good.Most articles I have seen for the British Isles were stating 90% copper 10% tin.
That is pretty much in keeping with an article on Harappan (Indo-Persian) tools: "According to Agrawal (1971: 168) only 14 percent of Harappan tools were alloyed in the optimum range of 8 to 12 percent tin."
Here is a link to a site that does reproductions using (as they say) anceint production methods. They list mixture amounts they use.
http://www.bronzeagefoundry.freeserve.co.uk/tools.htm
regards, Greg
 
Bronze blades are far too early period for SCA....

The Celts were pretty advanced in some odd ways considering they didn't really have cities or architecture in a modern sense of the word, and I'm sure some of them(they were a collection of groups, not one group), especially the Irish, had quite consistent and high quality bronze. The people we know as the Irish and eventually the Scottish are originally from Spain, and the darker people who are known as the Tinkers are actually more native to Ireland, probably having been there 6 thousand years longer than the people we see today. They are also the ones who built all the stoneworks and even Stonehenge in England. Anyhow, this older group had developed bronze to a pretty fine art it seems, but their invaders had them outdone on just about every other aspect of technology, especially logistics and armor. Combining their technologies proved to be quite effective, and the new Irish further developed it, and also started mining gold, some of which can be found in the coffin of King Tut. Ireland was one of the few places in Europe to have any tin, so their bronze more commonly had 10-15% tin. They also did seem to be able to add phosphorus to it via manure. I forget how they dealt with the resulting nitrates, but I think they just burned away. Maybe they burned the manure first, I honestly don't remember. If you are mainland Celt, the only source of tin was to import from Ireland, which was done, or to get it out of the Germanic regions which are now Switzerland and Austria. These sources were not very accessable so the price was very high, and the region was also not Celtic and thus there may have been cultural boundaries. Mainland bronze, as a result, was unlikely to have more than a very tiny amount of tin in it, and I believe the lead content was also higher, but this was purely impurity. Brass was later obtained by trade with Rome, who I believe learned that art from the Greeks(along with just about everything else).

If your persona is Irish or Scottish you are going to luck out on quality if you want to stay completely historical on it. 4th Century BC might have still seen some bronze in use, but by that time even the Celts were fairly ahead of most of the rest of the world in terms of the use of iron. Only Africans were ahead in this regard(interesting that they never managed to stay ahead with such a big headstart). Early iron mostly came out of England and Scandanivia(which was not Celtic). After the first time the Celts of Gaul conquered Rome and sacked the capitol, Rome put more importance on iron work, having leared from their defeat and took it to a whole new level. This tech spread as did Rome, and by the fourth century AD I believe they had all they way up to the border of Scotland conquered. These areas they conquered were heavily Romanized, and so a mainland Celtic persona of 4th AD would reflect this heavily. If he were any sort of warrior he would have to be a Roman auxillarie, because to bear arms of any sort was forbidden amongst the conquered people, unless they enlisted. If he was from England, same thing, though culturally a bit less Roman at that point. Irish or Scottish was a different story. These two groups were feared by the Romans, so they must have been pretty fierce at this point, yet the Romans also traded with them heavily, so they must have gotten along to some degree. It would not be absurd to see a 4th AD Irish Celt with a set of Lorica Segmenta or Lorica Hamata protecting his torso. Nor would it have been absurd to see him carrying a gladius or a spatha of Roman origin. Interestingly, you would likely also see items from Scandanavia and Upper Germania. The Irish and Scottish at this point in time filled the role which later the Norse did, that of the wild barbarians who everyone feared, but who were really mostly explorers and traders. 4th AD gives you quite a huge range of options for your persona, though I still believe bronze weapons, with the possible exception of a spearhead, are not typical at that point, they might have even gotten you odd looks from other warriors.
 
Thanks for the link, Ripper. That's now the second website that I've seen that showed any kind of percentages. Unfortunately, they don't give a bibliography on how they got to that percentage, whether by sample or extrapolation based on other samples. 12.5% is about average, from what I've seen, but the other source that I found had 29%(!) bronze, and 1% antimony. That one had a full bibliography, so I can use that example. It also seems innapropriate to use a source that is selling something as a research point, since they aren't objective. They also just happen to be at the optimal weapon alloy, as Guy mentioned. Other sources that didn't cite examples said that most bronzes for a long time were arsenic alloys, it seems, but I have no plans to mess with that. It also didn't mention if these were used for blades, bowls, or baubles.
Bronze blades would get strange looks, but they were still used in some areas, to a very limited extent. My persona wouldn't have ever seen one, though, I'm a 9th century norseman. Remember, I'm making this for an art project, not for use in garb.
If I can't find a proper bibliography, then I'll just make some bronze daggers for the cool factor, using the optimal range that Guy mentioned. I saw some pulled out of a dig that had the most beautiful lines. I think I'll do some of those anyway. I'm just getting anxious to do this melt, but I really don't want to waste the copper by making something that I could just as easily buy for cheap.
 
Dangus,
You certainly seem to know your early history. Thanks for the essay.
One point, are you sure of your facts about tin in Ireland? I can't remember the source right now but I remember reading that tin wasn't used until much later in Ireland because of the great price, as it was imported. In fact the first money in Ireland was reported to be copper axe heads.
Thanks, Lynn
 
the Archeology of Weapons,Ewart Oakenshott page 34

"...in the early bronze age the alloy of the stabbing swords contained on average 9.4% of tin, whereas the latter ones contained 10.6%." he compares this to gun metal from ninteenth century cannon which contain 8.25% to 10.7% of tin

That 's all I've got here, he dosn't tell where he got this info, or which swords were tested, but he does have a bibliography.
 
Lynn, I am fairly sure my info is correct, but something must be kept in mind, Ireland was fuedal during this time and thus the Celtic kingdoms which controlled the sources of tin and copper, and other metals for that matter, were not eager to share them with the kingdoms they did not like. Some simply wanted to keep it just for bragging rights. "We've got it, you can't have it". Cattle were much the same thing, which we see in Africa these days still.
 
Oakenshott is a bibliography unto himself, thanks Eric! I know the early blades that he's referencing, too. They were basically rapiers, with no tang. The blades were flanged out at the hilt area and tacked onto their handles. Great for thrusting, but they couldn't take any kind of lateral pressure or strikes. Nice to see how far we've come.
I think I will email the webmaster of Bronze age foundry. It would be good to get any input from someone that's already been doing what I'm considering. I'm probably going to do it the wussy way and green sand cast my projects, though. I also wanted to have some forgeable bronze onhand for some of the viking blades that I've been working on.
Thanks again for all the great input!
 
That's what I was thinking. Cold forging would let me clean up any flash and work harden them at the same time. I was also thinking of making some ingots with tangs, and hot forge them from there.
I've been wanting to play with bronzes for awhile now, but being a backyard bladesmith, buying materials that are of specific content is usually beyong my budget, so that's another reason that I'm doing this. I want to be able to do more with fittings, and brass crumbles on the anvil.
Still a bit nervous about it, being my first copper alloy melt of over 1lb. Aught to be interesting. I'll let everyone know how it goes.
 
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