5160 or L6 for swords

strahd71

strahd71

Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Messages
784
hey guys i've been doing some reading on sword steels for fun and for "functional or battle ready" blades the two steels that come up most often is 5160 and L6.

so for fun i was wondering what you folks thought. of course heat treat and geometry go with out saying, so please keep it some what confined to this very loose and vague scenario

if you were going to put your life on the line and there were two swords that were identical except one was made of 5160 and the other L6 which would you
choose and why if you have an opinion?

thanks for playing

jake
 
From what I understand, 5160 tends to have better edge retention while L6 has better impact resistance. A sword made of properly treated 5160 will have plenty of impact resistance, but L6 with a bainitic heat treatment is astoundingly tough, and holds an edge pretty well too. It's kind of a toss-up as far as I'm concerned.
 
I don't have any in L6, but I have a few in 5160 and they're plenty tough. I'd be happy with either though. Are you planning on having one made or something?
 
crimsonfalcon07 said:
I don't have any in L6, but I have a few in 5160 and they're plenty tough. I'd be happy with either though. Are you planning on having one made or something?
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thanks for the reply. nope i'm not planning anything really although like every guy on here i would love to make a sword someday. basically just trying to expand my knowledge
base. i
ive been reading but not really finding anything that says one is better than the other.

thanks for the replys

jake
 
According to the research I've done, L6 is supposed to have more impact resistance at the same hardness (in the ranges swords are normally tempered to) compared to 5160. There was one engineering type guy on the forums a while back who said he had a spec sheet comparing both steels, and his sheet said 5160 was tougher. I asked for a copy of that paper but never got a response.
I know Kevin Cashen has explored this in depth, complete with preparing identical samples, examining them with a metallurgical microscope, and he even has his own charpy testing machine (which tests impact resistance) that he's subjected them to. He doesn't seem to like coming right out and saying what is "best" comparing one steel type directly with another, but has pretty much said L6 beats about anything else commonly used for swords in impact resistance.

Having said that, according to spec sheets from the steel manufacturers, S5 is much tougher than either L6 or 5160 at the same hardness. About the only one I could find comparing apples to apples said S5 can better withstand impacts at 60 Rc than L6 can at 52-54 Rc! But to my knowledge very few people have verified that with "real world" testing, so don't take that as gospel. If I had the time and resources I'd love to find out the answers myself.

Usually when people mention "edge retention", they're talking about wear resistance. I.E., if you're slicing up rope, cardboard, and old carpet all day, a highly wear resistant steel will have the best "edge retention". But in my opinion, this means absolutely nothing when we're talking about swords that could be used on a battlefield (if you had a time machine, that is). The only thing that matters in a practical sense is the edge's ability to resist gross damage and deformation from impacting hard stuff at high speed. You get strength and resistance to bending and rolling from hardness. (indeed, this is basically what common hardness tests measure) Then in order to keep this high hardness edge from chipping out or breaking entirely, you need toughness, which comes from using the proper steel chemistry/type. But even the best blades would need to be sharpened to remove small nicks long before they got dull via abrasive wear.

An exception to this from a modern context would be a sword only ever used for test cutting tatami or other soft targets, but that's not really what I was getting at above.
 
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I'd go with the L6 of the two,but if I had one custom-built,I'd choose S7.
 
i know S7 is tough and good for impacts, a lot of power hammer dies are made from it. but i wonder about edge quality with S7? dos it sharpen?

jake
 
I would submit that if you are having a sword made it would be best to go with the alloy that the sword maker prefers and is most comfortable with. I seriously doubt that the vast majority of sword users are going to be able to tell any difference in the steel's properties assuming that it is properly heat treated and the sword's construction is correct.

If this discussion is intended to be a more philisophical "my steel can beat up your steel" sort of thing. Okay.
 
Triton said:
If this discussion is intended to be a more philisophical "my steel can beat up your steel" sort of thing. Okay.
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i really don't appreciate this. i believe i stated clearly in the original post that in my reading the two common steel choices were the 5160 and L6. what i didnt find in my reading was a really solid answer on why one was better than the other or if in the end there really was a difference. i really am not sure what your snide little comment "my steel can beat up your steal sort of thing" came from up until your post i thought it was a fine discussion where there was mutual respect and no one "beating up any steel" not sure why you chose to interject this. "Okay"

jake
 
I think he made that comment because it's really a case of 6 up, a half dozen down. From your "reading," you gathered that these steels are commonly used. A little common sense should tell you that they are commonly used because they're GOOD steels to work with for blades. Either way, assuming as you do, that the heat treat is done well, the quality is going to be fairly comparable. If you do more reading, you're going to realize that there's no single "best" steel for any cutlery application.

Since you aren't even in the market for a sword, this ends up being a really pointless question. As Triton says, you should be less obsessed with the steel, and more invested in whether the maker can do a good job with said steel. If you haven't gathered that you can get good results from either steel, and you won't be able to tell the difference, you maybe haven't been paying close enough attention.

If, from your comment, you are planning on MAKING one someday, you might want to research which is easiest to do, unless you're planning on stock removal and professional heat treat (that's what I do). I liked working with 5160, if that helps, but I haven't tried L6.

Either way, if you want to avoid comments like Triton's (which is completely true in all respects), you should actually have a REASON for asking this question. Otherwise why should anyone respond to your questions?
 
i always thought that expanding ones knowledge base and seeking knowledge was reason enough? isnt this the purpose of blade forums?

jake
 
Hard to contribute to your knowledge base if we don't know what you're looking for, and you get all offended when someone points that out. "Which am teh best steel" questions, with no basis for what you're looking for, aren't questions anyone can really learn from.

I'll ask you straight up. What are you looking for? Are you planning on MAKING a blade yourself someday? Are you planning on having someone ELSE make a blade for you some day? Or is this just a "more philosophical "my steel can beat up your steel" sort of thing." The answers you get may vary widely depending on what PURPOSE you have.

If you have some sort of a practical reason to want to know about the steels, we can get into the metallurgy and you can decide what you want. That's a productive discussion. If you're looking for a steel to have a sword made from by someone else, as Triton says, you're better off finding a maker you like, and making sure you go with a steel they're good with. If you're just doing this for fun, then perhaps you should accept that neither is necessarily better. The application is going to matter as well, if you want to get into niggling little details that in reality, most sword users won't even notice.
 
Bubba thanks for the offer. i cant do anything right now. honestly i was just trying to get some learnin. like i had stated i had done some reading but was hoping to just hear what makers had to say and why they thought it.

jake
 
ok one last question, hopefully this doesnt bother anyone. just watched a video about making japanese swords. they made a big deal about the traditional steels they used. anyone have an opinion on how todays steels match up?

thanks

jake
 
strahd71 said:
i know S7 is tough and good for impacts, a lot of power hammer dies are made from it. but i wonder about edge quality with S7? dos it sharpen?

jake
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Yeah, it sharpens. . .Cold Creek Forge has used S7 in some of his damascus tomahawk heads and I have used S7 in some blacksmithing application (cold-cut chisel). . .

. . .I've been wanting to play with some S7 for a blade for a while now. . .

FortyTwoBlades said:
I'm of the opinion that today's steel is of vastly superior quality in virtually every way. :)
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I would agree 100%, today's steels are engineered and the quality control and repeatability from lot to lot is WAY better than what the old stuff was.
 
The problem that swords of today face is that we've lost the parameters that the swords need to be gauged for proper performance. Since people don't actually use the things in real life-or-death combat, only those who have had the chance to handle a wide range of antiques are going to be able to tell you if a sword is within the bounds of historical plausibility (and therefore fine-tuned for actual usage in real combat--not practice). There's a huge difference between aiming to land a blow on a sparring partner and actually trying to kill or incapacitate a similarly armed adversary with an edged weapon.

So ultimately, the materials aren't the challenge of making a great modern sword--the form is.
 
Regarding the original post, I'd lean toward L-6 rather than 5160, though I have made some swords from 5160 and had them professionally heat treated (my oven doesn't fit swords) and they really did everything I could ask including slashing vehicle body panels, slicing rope, 2 by 4s in one shot, and chopping steel propane bottles.

I personally pay extra (a lot extra) for S-7 because it comes back from heat treatment straighter, and I suspect QC at the mill is higher for a tool steel than it is for a spring/structural steel. Plus it scores higher on the impact charts at the the hardnesses I prefer (RC 57-58 for most of my sword blades)

As some have suggested above there are many options, and heat treatment response is a major factor, so if you are ordering a sword it depends on what the maker is skilled at, if you are making then you need to find a steel your heat treater is skilled with, if you are heat treating go with 1080
 
I would go with 5160 just because there are more real world user swords out there made with 5160 than L6.
 
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