6OT's compared to the other OT's & LB7's

[orca8589]

I have a 6OT, SCHRADE+, and I just realized how it seems to be below standard in it's material & build quality. Brings up some questions . . .

Here's the story:
I have four Schrade lockbacks - a 7OT, the 6OT, a regular LB7, and an Uncle Henry/SCHRADE+ LB7. These were bought as my hard use (tool box, camping, bug-out kit, etc.) knives.

I bought the 7OT in 1995 or 1996. Typical U.S. Schrade: tight lock up, great fit & finish. When I bought the LB's, both used, they needed some tweaking: really bad grit & crud in the joints, tarnished bolsters, etc. I loosened the joints, sprayed hot water then WD40, and they're great now.

I loosened them this way: take an open LB7, place the spine of the blade in the end of the joint in the other, and gently pry until it loosens a little. When all the cleaning is done, gently squeeze the pivot end in a padded vice until proper tightness is achieved. Worked perfectly for me.

So, here's the deal: I bought the (used) 6OT at an antique shop. It was in pretty bad shape - it had been used as a hammer, scraper, prybar, digging tool . . . you name it, this poor knife has had it done to it. So, I go to gently pry the joint to try and clean it up, and . . . the spine of an LB7 doesn't fit into the joint of my 6OT.

As I looked more closely, I noticed:
- the blade & spring on the 6OT is thinner;
- the bolsters are not finished nearly as well as on the LB7's and the 7OT;
- the handle actually hurts to grip it tight; very hard corners & edges, unless wearing gloves.
- the delrin has no depth . . . meaning the dark color looks 'sprayed' onto the lighter color. It doesn't have that nice old subtle fade from light to dark, that the brown delrin Old Timers usually have.
- even after cleaning, the opening/closing is terribly rough, almost like the bearing area between blade pivot & spring are rough & not finished.

So, what gives? Were the 6OT's of differing dimensions than the LB7's & 7OT's? Not as nicely finished? Different quality delrin? I know the 6OT's are a 'barehead' type of pattern, with no rear bolster, but were they that much different from the others, or did I get a 'second', or late (after bankruptcy) piece?

So, a little long-winded, I know, but I was really surprised to suddenly notice this. Compared to all the U.S Schrades I have, this one has become the 'ugly stepchild' of the bunch.

thx - cpr

 

[DaveT63]

The USA 6OT's were built on pretty much the same frames as the 7OT, LB7, and LB8, just with the barehead and lanyard hole. And every one I've ever handled has had the same quality, fit, and finish as the other patterns. Of course, some quality escapement does occur regardless of quality control.

As for blade thickness, I think you will find the same variance issue across all 3 patterns, given enough samples. Schrade made many tweaks and minor changes over the years. I recently had Dale (Orvet) replace a reather worn blade on an LB8 with a new blade I got off ebay. Dale had to do some grinding on the new blade to get it to work in the LB8 frame.

 

[orca8589]

Thanks Dave - I feel better about this now. The 6OT is still a great user, and it's not going anywhere, I was just surprised at the variance.

thx - cpr

 

[Dave Thinkstoomuch]

I have noticed as my collection grows that quality on standard production items seemed best at Schrade pre mid-nineties or so. Anything made before 1990 is nearly guaranteed to have that ultimate-smooth "hand-honed walk" and super-quality fit and finish. I'm not sure if it had to do with the switch to CNC equipment or just increased production standards that made workers spend less time on each knife or what. The 6-OT didn't show up until things were getting sketchy for Schrade I think. This is just from my own observations.

 

[orvet]

While there may not be much visible external difference between the knives in the LB series, I can assure you there is most definitely some internal differences.

Some of the differences are:
-Different pivot pin hole diameter
-Different pivot pin location in relation to the lock notch in the tang.
-Different lock notch size.
-Different locking lug size.
-Different lock-bar width.

Those are the differences that come to mind at the moment.
The differences are not vast, except when attempting to fix one knife with parts from another.

I have no idea when the changes were made or why. But they do seem to vary within a specific pattern (like the 6OT).

Dale

 

[Dave Thinkstoomuch]

While there may not be much visible external difference between the knives in the LB series, I can assure you there is most definitely some internal differences.

Some of the differences are:
-Different pivot pin hole diameter
-Different pivot pin location in relation to the lock notch in the tang.
-Different lock notch size.
-Different locking lug size.
-Different lock-bar width.

Those are the differences that come to mind at the moment.
The differences are not vast, except when attempting to fix one knife with parts from another.

I have no idea when the changes were made or why. But they do seem to vary within a specific pattern (like the 6OT).

Dale

also...
-blade steel! (though that's not internal really) both in LB-7s and if you include 7-OT models too
-different placement of lock-bar pin (changed mid-nineties)
-different spring material and configuration (square, round, attached or separate from spacers etc)
-internal profile of lock-bar

I read a thread here about the late configuration LB-7s with one piece spacers and springs being prone to failure when compared to the earlier independent spring models. While the LB-7 frame and blade shape remained constant in outward appearance the guts of the knife and even blade steel composition of Schrade+ (from 440A to cheaper stuff) changed significantly over the years. It was not the same "Ultimate Lockback" sold in 1979 that was sold in 2003 though all USA Schrades are fine by me. I am pretty sure it was cost and manufacturing methods not improvement in design that drove the internal changes over the years. The internal configuration which seems strongest to me and I do not think is seen in Roland's groupings is the one found in Schrade's as-advertised: "solid workhorse construction" 7-OT "Cave Bear" re-issue of 1990-1995 (http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/FLYERS/1990s/pages/SC90-001.htm and http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/Catalogs/images/1992-CATS.pdf versus http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/Catalogs/images/1999-CATS.pdf The '90 and '99 models are two very different 7-OTs inside and out imho).The lock-bar is extra thick in the earlier one taking up more of the inside of the knife and being "chunkier" around the lock-bar pin. The spring too is very thick and rectangular not round like newer Lb-7s which I think would make it even stronger (kinda like an i-beam compared to a cylinder of same diameter). Also note the different placement of the lock-bar pin in relationship to the "Old Timer" shield when comparing the '92 carbon 7-OT with the '99 stainless 7-OT in the catalogues: it's an easy way to spot the difference later on on all LB-7 type knives. This one obvious difference dates LB-7 type knives basically as being from 1977-1995 or 1995-2004. My personal example of the 1990-1995 vintage 7-OT walks and talks like it means business: extra strong snap with unique sound.

 

[woseyjales]

Well I found my 6OT at the local fleamart as the only USA made in a bag full of elcheapos.
When I asked lady how much for this one she answered $5.
I didn't even haggle, just forked over the ransom along with her sack of leftovers.
I think it cleaned up pretty good. Rick Garcia kindly provided a non OEM sheath for it.

 

[Dave Thinkstoomuch]

woseyjales, great find for 5 bucks. can't go wrong!

 

[orvet]

You are right Dave I did leave out some of the changes.
The change I least like is the 2-piece springs.

The first is a pic of a earlier type LB cutaway made by Schrade for demo purposes. (pic courtesy of LT632ret). IMHO that is a much stronger system & prone to less breakage of the spring than the newer type, the two identical flat springs.

The second pic shows both spring types from a 6OT.
Third pic- Flat spring 6OT parts laid out
Forth pic- Old style spring parts laid out

Schrade used the 2 flat springs on the the 3 series knives (3OT, 53OT) on the 5 series knives, (5OT, 55OT, 5UH, 50UH & 55UH) as well as the LB series.

Of course you can't get the flat springs now, but fortunately it is not too hard to make the old type springs.

Dale

 

[Dave Thinkstoomuch]

Dale:
Thanks for posting those pics I'm sure many will learn from them, most of all myself. I really am not crazy bout the 2-pc spacer/spring combo config either although I just bought a brass LB-5 that is like that and walk and talk are good. Those thin flat springs seem way more prone to metal fatigue to me. The single spacer separating the rear bolsters also looks way better imho. The examples you show display the separate round springs. Any photos of the square ones to show that difference to folks?

 

[orvet]

I don't think I have any off hand with a square spring, though I do have some more squared off spring steel stock that I use to make that type replacement springs.

The "square springs" that I have seen really aren't square, just more squared off than "round spring" which is more of an oval shape, IIRC.

Dale

 

[Dave Thinkstoomuch]

I don't think I have any off hand with a square spring, though I do have some more squared off spring steel stock that I use to make that type replacement springs.

The "square springs" that I have seen really aren't square, just more squared off than "round spring" which is more of an oval shape, IIRC.

Dale

Thanks for the clarification. You are the man with the knowledge in this area I figure.