80CRV2 steel question

Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
144
Does anyone have data on how prone to or resistant to corrosion (caused mainly by exposure to the great outdoors) 80CRV2 steel is?

I am seeing this steel around a bit now and curious how it reacts to the outdoors.

Thanks!
 
It won't rust if you look at it sideways but it is a low alloy high carbon steel. It will rust. Just use common sense and proper maintenance and you'll be good to go. If you are using it in extreme conditions you might want to have the blade Cerakoted.
 
The corrosion resistance is not much better than 10XX... It will get panita if you use it one acidic food. Need some cleaning and keep it dry after usage.
 
I don't have data and I could be off base but my experience with this steel has been positive . I live in the south so coated blade or not I will get rust or patina or bevels on knives if I'm not careful .

Had esee get a bit of corrosion on the bevels and other carbons , he'll even stainless steel rust here .

I've got a Winkler in this steel and no far no issue with it . I can't be sure if it was breakfree or frog lube I out on the Winkler but for sure it was one of the 2 and it's worked good so far.
 
I've used it to make several knives. It will rust and corrode faster than O1. But that can be slowed a bit by using a higher finish, and or forcing a vinegar patina, keep it oiled. If you prefer it to be bright, I can't recommend using Flitz metal polish enough, it will remove surface discoloration and it also leaves a protective coating that is food safe. Obviously if you have forced a patina the flitz will take it off mostly.
 
I didn't think that anything rusted faster than O1. :eek:
I've used it to make several knives. It will rust and corrode faster than O1. But that can be slowed a bit by using a higher finish, and or forcing a vinegar patina, keep it oiled. If you prefer it to be bright, I can't recommend using Flitz metal polish enough, it will remove surface discoloration and it also leaves a protective coating that is food safe. Obviously if you have forced a patina the flitz will take it off mostly.
 
In my experience, 80CRV2 rusts slightly less than 1095. Its not really an issue, as I keep a light coat of mineral oil on my blades.
 
As has been mentioned (and is a good idea with ANY carbon steel) a very light coating of mineral oils should do it. It works just fine on the 80crv2 blades I've made so far, not even a patina on them yet - but they don't get used much. I'll also second what jdm61 said: Never have I seen anything rust faster than O1.
 
Yeah, I usually use Hoppe's number 9 all over everything when not in use. I'll keep them lightly oiled. Thanks again for all the swift replies.

How does 80CRV2 compare to say D2? Just curious as to everyone's experience.
 
Just a personal/metallurgical comment, but I get a kick out of all the claims that one steel or another rusts faster. They all rust!

I have used this analogy to describe it:
High School students come in types from very smart to pretty dull. Most all will graduate from High School. The sharper ones will get better grades, and the duller students will struggle to pass the tests.... but they all graduate in about the same four years. Graduating from high school is not an indication of smartness, just an indication of having passed all the tests for those four years.
Carbon steel comes in many varieties, some gets sharper and some will be duller ... but they all rust about the same amount. Rust resistance is not an indication of how good a knife steel is , it is an indication of how much it was exposed to water and air.




I know it is more complicated than that, so lets look at it more metallurgically. The following is concerning the normal carbon steel alloys used for knifemaking.:

The carbon in knife steel is around 1%. That does not change more than a few tenths of a percent in carbon steels. Manganese is around 1%, and doesn't change much more than +/- half a percent. Chromium is normally less than 1%, if present at all. Small amounts of nickel and other alloys are present (V, W, Mo, etc.) in a some knifemaking carbon steels, minute traces of other elements are vestiges of the smelting and ores, and are insignificant. - the rest is iron.

What rusts is iron. Carbon steels are generally between 97% to 98% iron. The amount of rust that would change over 1% of alloy content isn't really much.

Rust is iron oxide. Merely combining iron and atmospheric oxygen at room temperature will make very little rust and may take centuries to get any significant amount. Adding moisture that is present as humidity will accelerate this - Ask anyone who lives along the coastal regions. Adding liquid water to the steel surface ( but not submersing it) will greatly increase the oxidation as the water evaporates. Steel exposed to rain is in this class. Adding ions to the film of water on the steel surface (especially chlorides), will accelerate the rust even faster - things that go in and out of salt water are in this class.

The small amount of non-reactive alloying in carbon steels will not slow down any of these processes significantly. The alloys are there for grain refinement, toughness, and hardening rates and depth ... not specifically for rust control. You have to get to over 10% chromium to gain significant resistance, and above 12% to be considered stainless. Also, non-hardened stainless steel will rust even with the high chromium content. Only after HT does the significant anti-rust property develop.

Someone with a lot of time on their hands should do a rust comparison test and grind 3X1" coupons of O-1, 1095, 5160, 80CrV, 1084, D-2, and 440C. This gives a chromium content ranging form near zero to over 12%. They should be washed in dish soap cleaned with alcohol, and dried with a clean paper towel, set on a labeled board, ... and not toughed after that. The board should be set in the workshop near the bench for a week and observed if any rust forms.
Then they should be set outside, but not in the open (Florida room or covered patio), where they are exposed to atmospheric air for a week. Last, they should be left outside in an open place for a week . Photos should be taken as the rust patterns form.

What does make steel rust faster of slower is surface condition. Steel that is ground at 120 grit will rust much faster than steel at 400 grit. 1000 grit is even slower. Polished steel rusts the slowest. Exposed pores that trap moisture, and the amount of microscopic hills and valleys to trap moisture are the main drivers of rust. The amount of surface area exposed to that moisture combining with the atmospheric oxygen determines the rust rate almost exclusively.
Good HT and finishing to a finer finish will do more to reduce rust than picking one steel over the other. Forcing a patina with FC or other method will also slow down rust, as the blade surface is already covered with an oxide.


BTW, I know that there are already charts and photos of rust comparison tests. Just remember that you have to be comparing apples and oranges to apply them in the case of a knife blade. Most of these tests are for corrosion resistant steel allows, and do not equate to normal carbon steels. They are mainly designed to determine how many years a certain alloy will survive in various outdoor environments, not if the steel will rust.

Stainless steels are a very different thing, and it gets a lot more complex.
 
Someone with a lot of time on their hands should do a rust comparison test and grind 3X1" coupons of O-1, 1095, 5160, 80CrV, 1084, D-2, and 440C. This gives a chromium content ranging form near zero to over 12%. They should be washed in dish soap cleaned with alcohol, and dried with a clean paper towel, set on a labeled board, ... and not toughed after that. The board should be set in the workshop near the bench for a week and observed if any rust forms.
Then they should be set outside, but not in the open (Florida room or covered patio), where they are exposed to atmospheric air for a week. Last, they should be left outside in an open place for a week . Photos should be taken as the rust patterns form.

This is an interesting idea, maybe someday I'll have the time and steel to give it a shot.

Does heat treat affect how steel rusts?
 
Yes.

IME but just treat as IMHO + a dash of salt.

Cr & other elemental passivation are indeed play a key role given mass% > 3%. For low Cr steels (10xx, 80crv2, etc..) corrosion resistant or lack-thereof depend ht-ed microstructure. To avoid confusion, let's factor out (remove) surface finish because it's an external - merely collect/pool X amt of corrosion agent.

Referring to rust (sub surface) not surface oxidation/patina

Microstructure characteristics which could affect more than just corrosion, e.g hydrogen embrittlement, etc... Below is a list going from major to minor cause/affect
1) cracks - severity depend of magnitude (macro - micro - nano) where corrosion can penetrate & pool agent for long term corrosion.
2) low cohesion (high porosity) - ditto
3) wide grain boundaries - from too much precipt carbide and element sinked/aggregated - ditto
4) plate martensite - long interlattice canals, which might be ajarred by precipt cementite and RA - ditto
5) Ferrite% - conducive covalent
6) The rest

For an instance, O1 known to has terrible corrosion because of 1, 2 & 4 from excessive carbon in aust solution + improper quench/cooling technique.

This is an interesting idea, maybe someday I'll have the time and steel to give it a shot.

Does heat treat affect how steel rusts?
 
Thanks for the detailed reply! I understand most of what you posted, but what do you mean by ferrite %?

Also, more broadly, I intended to ask to what degree are there differences to be expected in rusting between examples of the same steel at different RC, if we pretend that one example in annealed state is ideally normalized, and that the example in a hardened state was hardened ideally with minimal or negligible negative characteristics listed above? Or are the characteristics you posted all of the main factors which determine such and effect?
 
Mostly deduction on my part - so fwiw ok.

Ferrite = Free iron - as elemental rather than part of crystal. Heavily tempered = Fe3C, i.e. around 12.5% of decomposed mart would be ferrite. Behind the scene - ferrite= higher ductility as the result of tempering.

ferrite & RA crystals are cubic shape, so in general those microstructure will have higher cohesion (less gap). So I GUESS/PROJECT annealed steel will be a bit more corrosion resistant than hardened.

Corrosion relative to RC - depends on martensite type. Again, it's microstructure thing, once screwed up - higher temper won't help and could hurt in corrosion resistance.

Thanks for the detailed reply! I understand most of what you posted, but what do you mean by ferrite %?

Also, more broadly, I intended to ask to what degree are there differences to be expected in rusting between examples of the same steel at different RC, if we pretend that one example in annealed state is ideally normalized, and that the example in a hardened state was hardened ideally with minimal or negligible negative characteristics listed above? Or are the characteristics you posted all of the main factors which determine such and effect?
 
This is all good info. I am needing to buy some steel and have really been thinking of throwing some into my order to try. My understanding is the heat treatment is very similar to 1080-1084. Anyone with experience?

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Quote Originally Posted by Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith View Post
Someone with a lot of time on their hands should do a rust comparison test and grind 3X1" coupons of O-1, 1095, 5160, 80CrV, 1084, D-2, and 440C. This gives a chromium content ranging form near zero to over 12%. They should be washed in dish soap cleaned with alcohol, and dried with a clean paper towel, set on a labeled board, ... and not toughed after that. The board should be set in the workshop near the bench for a week and observed if any rust forms.
Then they should be set outside, but not in the open (Florida room or covered patio), where they are exposed to atmospheric air for a week. Last, they should be left outside in an open place for a week . Photos should be taken as the rust patterns form.


This is something I'm actually wanting to do. Though here's my thought since I don't want to go out and buy 10+ different steels, I know all of these steels are used by many of you guys here and if you have a piece of scrap say like a 1 inch square piece or what not, send it may way. I'll set up a nice little testing scenario with all our samples and should get some really good data. If you all decide not to, no worries I'll eventually get around to buying different steels and will do it down the road. If you all are game, here is the list of steels I'm wanting to test, message me and I'll send an address to send the scrap piece to. 1075, 1080, 1084, 1095, 15N20, 5160, 51200, 80CRV2, A2, D2, L6, M2, S2, S7, W1, W2 (o1 I have). I've got some ideas on the testing protocol I want to do but if you have ideas send them my way. Afterwards I'll put a nice post together with everything.

Thanks,
 
Just a personal/metallurgical comment, but I get a kick out of all the claims that one steel or another rusts faster. They all rust!

I have used this analogy to describe it:
High School students come in types from very smart to pretty dull. Most all will graduate from High School. The sharper ones will get better grades, and the duller students will struggle to pass the tests.... but they all graduate in about the same four years. Graduating from high school is not an indication of smartness, just an indication of having passed all the tests for those four years.
Carbon steel comes in many varieties, some gets sharper and some will be duller ... but they all rust about the same amount. Rust resistance is not an indication of how good a knife steel is , it is an indication of how much it was exposed to water and air.




I know it is more complicated than that, so lets look at it more metallurgically. The following is concerning the normal carbon steel alloys used for knifemaking.:

The carbon in knife steel is around 1%. That does not change more than a few tenths of a percent in carbon steels. Manganese is around 1%, and doesn't change much more than +/- half a percent. Chromium is normally less than 1%, if present at all. Small amounts of nickel and other alloys are present (V, W, Mo, etc.) in a some knifemaking carbon steels, minute traces of other elements are vestiges of the smelting and ores, and are insignificant. - the rest is iron.

What rusts is iron. Carbon steels are generally between 97% to 98% iron. The amount of rust that would change over 1% of alloy content isn't really much.

Rust is iron oxide. Merely combining iron and atmospheric oxygen at room temperature will make very little rust and may take centuries to get any significant amount. Adding moisture that is present as humidity will accelerate this - Ask anyone who lives along the coastal regions. Adding liquid water to the steel surface ( but not submersing it) will greatly increase the oxidation as the water evaporates. Steel exposed to rain is in this class. Adding ions to the film of water on the steel surface (especially chlorides), will accelerate the rust even faster - things that go in and out of salt water are in this class.

The small amount of non-reactive alloying in carbon steels will not slow down any of these processes significantly. The alloys are there for grain refinement, toughness, and hardening rates and depth ... not specifically for rust control. You have to get to over 10% chromium to gain significant resistance, and above 12% to be considered stainless. Also, non-hardened stainless steel will rust even with the high chromium content. Only after HT does the significant anti-rust property develop.

Someone with a lot of time on their hands should do a rust comparison test and grind 3X1" coupons of O-1, 1095, 5160, 80CrV, 1084, D-2, and 440C. This gives a chromium content ranging form near zero to over 12%. They should be washed in dish soap cleaned with alcohol, and dried with a clean paper towel, set on a labeled board, ... and not toughed after that. The board should be set in the workshop near the bench for a week and observed if any rust forms.
Then they should be set outside, but not in the open (Florida room or covered patio), where they are exposed to atmospheric air for a week. Last, they should be left outside in an open place for a week . Photos should be taken as the rust patterns form.

What does make steel rust faster of slower is surface condition. Steel that is ground at 120 grit will rust much faster than steel at 400 grit. 1000 grit is even slower. Polished steel rusts the slowest. Exposed pores that trap moisture, and the amount of microscopic hills and valleys to trap moisture are the main drivers of rust. The amount of surface area exposed to that moisture combining with the atmospheric oxygen determines the rust rate almost exclusively.
Good HT and finishing to a finer finish will do more to reduce rust than picking one steel over the other. Forcing a patina with FC or other method will also slow down rust, as the blade surface is already covered with an oxide.


BTW, I know that there are already charts and photos of rust comparison tests. Just remember that you have to be comparing apples and oranges to apply them in the case of a knife blade. Most of these tests are for corrosion resistant steel allows, and do not equate to normal carbon steels. They are mainly designed to determine how many years a certain alloy will survive in various outdoor environments, not if the steel will rust.

Stainless steels are a very different thing, and it gets a lot more complex.
Yes sir, I agree that they all trust. I started out maintaining my cub scout jack knife at age 8 in 1963. I now have a ridiculous collection, and maintenance never ceases.
 
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