8Cr13MoV

[3Guardsmen]

on a side note, AUS-8 is one of my favorite steels, especially in a knife like the Dragonfly with a flat ground blade. It gets extremely sharp. My waved one is a pocket razor!

Pete

You waved an FRN Drangonfly?! Cool!! Do you have any pics by chance? I'd love to see what a waved knife that small looks like!

Regards,
3G

 

[bladeeagle]

8CR13MOV is kind of a cheap steel. It does not hold its edge very well. I used to have a couple of folders which blades are made of that, and all gone now

 

[Pete1977]

8CR13MOV is kind of a cheap steel. It does not hold its edge very well. I used to have a couple of folders which blades are made of that, and all gone now

My experiences have been quite different. It does not hold its edge as well as some of the higher end steels but it resharpens easily in the field (i.e. when you can't put it on the sharpmaker, edge pro etc.), holds its edge slightly less than some higher grade steels (I've experienced its edge retention to be only slightly worse than 440C (Pika) H-1(atlantic salt) VG-10(endura) and S30V(Military) and slightly better than 420HC (Buck 110) and Chinese 440(Gerber Armor)), and costs a fraction of a so called "better" knife.

Cheap and inexpensive are two different animals. 8CR13MoV is an inexpensive steel and is good for hard use applications where edge retention and corrosion resistance is less desireable a trait than affordability and ease of (field) resharpening. I consider a cheap steel to be in "gas station" brand knives and knockoffs, pot-metal conglomerations in some chinese made folders, and handle and liner steels used in blades (aka 420J2, AUS-4 or AUS-6).

Other factors that might have influenced your poor results in edge retention could be heat treat, edge angle, medium being cut, or application of the knife.

your experiences could be completely different than mine, I tend to use less expensive knives for harder use purposes in environments where they can frequently be lost- i.e. in the commercial fishing and maritime industries, where a knife is often used to do much more than just cut. I don't mean to minimize your experiences with this particular steel or any lesser steel than the known favorites, however in my own experiences I don't have a problem with 8Cr13MoV, 440C, AUS-8, AUS-10 or ATS-55.

In less than 2 days I'll be bringing my PE Byrd Raven to work for 21 days as I have not had a chance to pick up a Tenacious yet and will update folks on its performance around the beginning of next month.

Pete

 

[Sal Glesser]

8CR13MOV is kind of a cheap steel. It does not hold its edge very well. I used to have a couple of folders which blades are made of that, and all gone now

What knives did you have made from 8Cr13MoV?

sal

 

[A.P.F.]

Not that I am doubting your experience, bladeeagle, but as the owner of 14 Byrd knives, all with 8Cr13MoV blades, I have nothing but good things to say about the steel. In my experience, 8Cr13MoV takes an exceptionally fine edge and holds it for a more than reasonable length of time. Perhaps it is just me, but it seems as if a shaving edge comes off my S30V blades before my 8Cr13MoV blades. Some have mentioned that 8Cr13MoV is more prone to rust, but again that has not been my experience.

All in all, I think that 8Cr13MoV is a good steel that represents one of the best bargains out there.

 

[bladeeagle]

What knives did you have made from 8Cr13MoV?

sal

It's made in china, sanrenmu folding knives. all of their folders are made from 8Cr13Mov

 

[bladeeagle]

Not that I am doubting your experience, bladeeagle, but as the owner of 14 Byrd knives, all with 8Cr13MoV blades, I have nothing but good things to say about the steel. In my experience, 8Cr13MoV takes an exceptionally fine edge and holds it for a more than reasonable length of time. Perhaps it is just me, but it seems as if a shaving edge comes off my S30V blades before my 8Cr13MoV blades. Some have mentioned that 8Cr13MoV is more prone to rust, but again that has not been my experience.

All in all, I think that 8Cr13MoV is a good steel that represents one of the best bargains out there.

Thanks for your reply. basicly 8Cr13Mov is OK and certainly it meets all the requirements of daily use. Its rust resistant is good and very easy to be sharpened. From my experience it acts like 420HC from BUCK. But compared to the newly used stainless like 154cm, s30v, it does not keep an edge that long.

 

[knarfeng]

It's made in china, sanrenmu folding knives. all of their folders are made from 8Cr13Mov

The performance of any blade steel is as dependent on the heat treat as on the alloy. I have a Byrd flight. Hardness is 59HRC. Edge retension is on the order of AUS8 of the same hardness. (I do side by side manila rope cutting and the performance is close enough that I can't tell them apart.) I find 8Cr13MoV as produced by a reputable manufacturer to be quite acceptable as a blade alloy.

Before you decide that all 8CR13MoV is junk, try a Byrd or a Benchmade.

 

[bladeeagle]

The performance of any blade steel is as dependent on the heat treat as on the alloy. I have a Byrd flight. Hardness is 59HRC. Edge retension is on the order of AUS8 of the same hardness. (I do side by side manila rope cutting and the performance is close enough that I can't tell them apart.) I find 8Cr13MoV as produced by a reputable manufacturer to be quite acceptable as a blade alloy.

Before you decide that all 8CR13MoV is junk, try a Byrd or a Benchmade.

I have a Byrd. It is heat treated to about HRC58, but it does not keep a good edge compared to 420HC at the same hardness. I did the testing by cutting cardboard. It gets dull even faster than BUCK 110.

 

[bladeeagle]

My experiences have been quite different. It does not hold its edge as well as some of the higher end steels but it resharpens easily in the field (i.e. when you can't put it on the sharpmaker, edge pro etc.), holds its edge slightly less than some higher grade steels (I've experienced its edge retention to be only slightly worse than 440C (Pika) H-1(atlantic salt) VG-10(endura) and S30V(Military) and slightly better than 420HC (Buck 110) and Chinese 440(Gerber Armor)), and costs a fraction of a so called "better" knife.

Cheap and inexpensive are two different animals. 8CR13MoV is an inexpensive steel and is good for hard use applications where edge retention and corrosion resistance is less desireable a trait than affordability and ease of (field) resharpening. I consider a cheap steel to be in "gas station" brand knives and knockoffs, pot-metal conglomerations in some chinese made folders, and handle and liner steels used in blades (aka 420J2, AUS-4 or AUS-6).

Other factors that might have influenced your poor results in edge retention could be heat treat, edge angle, medium being cut, or application of the knife.

your experiences could be completely different than mine, I tend to use less expensive knives for harder use purposes in environments where they can frequently be lost- i.e. in the commercial fishing and maritime industries, where a knife is often used to do much more than just cut. I don't mean to minimize your experiences with this particular steel or any lesser steel than the known favorites, however in my own experiences I don't have a problem with 8Cr13MoV, 440C, AUS-8, AUS-10 or ATS-55.

In less than 2 days I'll be bringing my PE Byrd Raven to work for 21 days as I have not had a chance to pick up a Tenacious yet and will update folks on its performance around the beginning of next month.

Pete

I am a lazy man and i hate sharpening knives frequently.. So when choosing steel, my first consideration is edge retaining ability... I use benchmades or spydecos made of S30V or D2 which hold its edge longer and inexpensive too.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

I too have sanrenmu (2 of them). It's not 13Mo, but 12Mo IIRC (saw that on some chinese sites). As I mentioned, it holds edge better than other Chinese cheapies. I could even sharpen it to shave (actually shaved with it). You might want to thin the profile.

The one that looks like a klotzi wharncliffe is especially thick in profile, so I thin it out. Strop it on a gloss magazine (see the thread on Maintenance), I use it often, cut pizza, string, tapes (rarely cardboard though, but the pizza was cut on the box, so knife goes into the cardboard too) and it works decently. A couple of swipe on jeans after washing brings back 90% of the sharpness.

As mentioned, an inexpensive knife like this perform well for daily use, and you won't grief over lost of it.

One factor we don't know is the consistency of Sanrenmu heat treat. I might happen to get two of the best??

 

[GIRLYmann]

So are we all missing the point here?
In that Spyderco alone cannot be blamed for manufacturing faults or QC problems that might arise if they were OEMed products to begin with?
There is only so much that can be done to oversee the OEMs production; other than for the buyer to individually inspecting each product at random as they make their way from the point of origin.
But yeah,
after years of seeing all those cheap 'n awfully made, domestically designed knives from red China in numerous mail-order catalogs, I must say that SRM has excellent quality control on their products.
This is one Chinese brand that has what it takes to be a world player.
So, if there's any problem concerning steel quality from just such a firm, then it would most probably be something for the steel manufacturer and not the knife maker/cutlery importer to answer for.
All business is carried out based on the trust one has in anothers ability to deliver.
It's simply bad business to act dishonestly.
Spyderco has been in the business way too long to be anything, but honest.
In Spyderco, we trust...

 

[A.P.F.]

I am a lazy man and i hate sharpening knives frequently.. So when choosing steel, my first consideration is edge retaining ability... I use benchmades or spydecos made of S30V or D2 which hold its edge longer and inexpensive too.

Heh...I hear ya Bladeeagle, I hear ya. S30V is one of my favorites too.

 

[bladeeagle]

Heh...I hear ya Bladeeagle, I hear ya. S30V is one of my favorites too.

I like s30v because it holds an edge for a long time.. maybe not as long as s60v or s90v, but it's easy to sharpen and resist rust very well.. It's the most functional steel that i have.. The only issue is its price

 

[bladeeagle]

I too have sanrenmu (2 of them). It's not 13Mo, but 12Mo IIRC (saw that on some chinese sites). As I mentioned, it holds edge better than other Chinese cheapies. I could even sharpen it to shave (actually shaved with it). You might want to thin the profile.

The one that looks like a klotzi wharncliffe is especially thick in profile, so I thin it out. Strop it on a gloss magazine (see the thread on Maintenance), I use it often, cut pizza, string, tapes (rarely cardboard though, but the pizza was cut on the box, so knife goes into the cardboard too) and it works decently. A couple of swipe on jeans after washing brings back 90% of the sharpness.

As mentioned, an inexpensive knife like this perform well for daily use, and you won't grief over lost of it.

One factor we don't know is the consistency of Sanrenmu heat treat. I might happen to get two of the best??

Well i've sent mails to SRM and from their feedback they use 813..

About the heat treatment, SRM does a good job on this.. It's common used in china and i never heard any compaints about its heat treatment..

 

[bladeeagle]

So are we all missing the point here?
In that Spyderco alone cannot be blamed for manufacturing faults or QC problems that might arise if they were OEMed products to begin with?
There is only so much that can be done to oversee the OEMs production; other than for the buyer to individually inspecting each product at random as they make their way from the point of origin.
But yeah,
after years of seeing all those cheap 'n awfully made, domestically designed knives from red China in numerous mail-order catalogs, I must say that SRM has excellent quality control on their products.
This is one Chinese brand that has what it takes to be a world player.
So, if there's any problem concerning steel quality from just such a firm, then it would most probably be something for the steel manufacturer and not the knife maker/cutlery importer to answer for.
All business is carried out based on the trust one has in anothers ability to deliver.
It's simply bad business to act dishonestly.
Spyderco has been in the business way too long to be anything, but honest.
In Spyderco, we trust...

SRM provides a good series of folders at its price..

 

[The Mastiff]

I have a Byrd. It is heat treated to about HRC58, but it does not keep a good edge compared to 420HC at the same hardness. I did the testing by cutting cardboard. It gets dull even faster than BUCK 110.

Have you had the blade(s) tested for hardness? Where are you getting this number from? As far as testing the steel can you tell us more about your comparison? Factory edges,or sharpened to same angles? How did you compare them? How different were the results too? Was it close, or a clear superiority by one over the other?

I always like hearing about how different people conduct tests and what kind of results they get. Thanks, Joe

 

[knarfeng]

I am a lazy man and i hate sharpening knives frequently.. So when choosing steel, my first consideration is edge retaining ability... I use benchmades or spydecos made of S30V or D2 which hold its edge longer and inexpensive too.

I have a Byrd. It is heat treated to about HRC58, but it does not keep a good edge compared to 420HC at the same hardness. I did the testing by cutting cardboard. It gets dull even faster than BUCK 110.

No one here is comparing 8Cr13MoV to S30V or D2. Not a good comparison. Way different properties, way different pricepoint. Most of us, including Spyderco and Benchmade, compare the performance of 8Cr13MoV to that of AUS8.

Like The Mastiff, I also would like to know how you measured the hardness. I work in an engineering company and have access to the metallurgical lab with its Rockwell tester and the lab's metallurgist, who is my friend. And you?

Comparing a the edge retention properties of 420HC to 8Cr13MoV using a Byrd and a 110 is an iffy proposition. Buck has refined their blade shapes to perform well on the CATRA test, which is very similar to cutting cardboard. In their development work, they found that blade shape makes a major impact in the performance of such testing. I am unaware of the Byrd line having been optimized for such, I know the Bucks have been. It makes it hard to compare alloys with two such different blades using that kind of test. And as The Mastiff has pointed out, edge angle also plays a big role, as does ensuring the same initial sharpness of each blade. Even if you control the edge angle and sharpness, though, the blade profile will throw off the results.

 

[bladeeagle]

No one here is comparing 8Cr13MoV to S30V or D2. Not a good comparison. Way different properties, way different pricepoint. Most of us, including Spyderco and Benchmade, compare the performance of 8Cr13MoV to that of AUS8.

Like The Mastiff, I also would like to know how you measured the hardness. I work in an engineering company and have access to the metallurgical lab with its Rockwell tester and the lab's metallurgist, who is my friend. And you?

Comparing a the edge retention properties of 420HC to 8Cr13MoV using a Byrd and a 110 is an iffy proposition. Buck has refined their blade shapes to perform well on the CATRA test, which is very similar to cutting cardboard. In their development work, they found that blade shape makes a major impact in the performance of such testing. I am unaware of the Byrd line having been optimized for such, I know the Bucks have been. It makes it hard to compare alloys with two such different blades using that kind of test. And as The Mastiff has pointed out, edge angle also plays a big role, as does ensuring the same initial sharpness of each blade. Even if you control the edge angle and sharpness, though, the blade profile will throw off the results.

Well i do not have access to any of the Rockwell testing machines.. But from the information i get from BUCK and Byrd i thought the hardness of them are quite similar. Sure i did not take a very serious testing about the Byrd and 110, as a user. About the blade shape refiniation of BUCK, i've never heard about it, could you please expand a little on this? Thanks

 

[knarfeng]

Various folks have tested their Byrds and reported hardnesses ranging from 58 to 61. With no published spec for Byrd Blade hardness of which I am aware, it is hard to be certain exactly what the hardness of an individual blade might be. In truth, 58 might be a good guess at it.


As for Buck's blade profile, I found the most coherent telling of the tale here, although I've seen bits and pieces in various places:

http://www.thehuntingknifedepot.com/page/1098848

Here is a printout of their section 12

12. Edging
Edging the blade with Buck's Edge2x™ Technology.For 35 years, Buck Knives followed a blade-edging protocol that produced blades with excellent edge-holding qualities. In 1999, Buck decided to edge out the competition with the most exciting innovation in edge technology-Edge2x.Chuck Buck, along with Buck engineers, quality and production supervisors, and experienced blade edgers, experimented with angles and materials before coming up with the exact edge geometry specification to create this new, thinner, sharper edge. This edge was achieved by changing the included angle (the total of the angles on both sides of the blade) from a range of 35° to 50° to a range of 26° to 32°. This range allows Buck greater flexibility to match the angle of the blade to the function of the knife. The initial part of creating the edge is performed during step #7, hollow grinding, which is a computer controlled, automated machine process. During this grinding process, blades are tapered to a specific profile. This yields a consistent blade thickness at the edge that cannot be duplicated by hand. Then the human hand takes over on an edging wheel. Another key to the success of the Edge2x process is that we converted to using laminated leather stropping wheels instead of stitched cloth. The sturdiness of the leather wheels enables us to eliminate "rollover" (where the edge can lose its ideal keenness) and create razor-sharp blades with consistency.The human touch lessens the risk of burning, which can lower the hardness of the steel. Experienced edgers, who have been with Buck for many years, went through extensive training to learn the new system. It took many months for them to perfect the process, but it has been well worth the effort.A computerized test for edge retention, developed by CATRA (Cutlery and Allied Trades Research Association), is performed on blades for each knife model. For inspection, a laser-measuring device, called a goniometer, is used to check the precise angle measurements to verify that the edge matches specifications. Edge2x blades have been compared against our older Buck blades and evaluated using the CATRA tests, which proved the superiority of our new edging process. With Edge2x Technology, every knife made by Buck is sharper out of the box, holds an edge much longer and is easier to re-sharpen when needed. "​

Note that Buck got a tremendous increase in performance, using the same steel, by changing the blade shape. I added the blue highlight because the indication is that Buck's blade is not just modified at the edge, but along the entire profile. The CATRA test uses a special paper, but it essentially consists of controlled cutting of cardboard, and the Buck blades have been optimized to excel at it. Not a bad thing, since an awful lot of us use our knives for similar things, but it does make it hard to compare steel performance from a Buck blade to another maker's blade cutting cardboard.

I like to do side by side cutting comparisons myself, but I prefer to use manila rope and blades sharpened at a 30° inclusive angle. Once cut, the fibers of the rope pull away from the blade. So blade profile has little impact on the edge retention results.

Anyway, hope that helps.
Frank R