8Cr13MoV

knarfeng said:
Various folks have tested their Byrds and reported hardnesses ranging from 58 to 61. With no published spec for Byrd Blade hardness of which I am aware, it is hard to be certain exactly what the hardness of an individual blade might be. In truth, 58 might be a good guess at it.


As for Buck's blade profile, I found the most coherent telling of the tale here, although I've seen bits and pieces in various places:

http://www.thehuntingknifedepot.com/page/1098848

Here is a printout of their section 12
12. Edging
Edging the blade with Buck's Edge2x™ Technology.For 35 years, Buck Knives followed a blade-edging protocol that produced blades with excellent edge-holding qualities. In 1999, Buck decided to edge out the competition with the most exciting innovation in edge technology-Edge2x.Chuck Buck, along with Buck engineers, quality and production supervisors, and experienced blade edgers, experimented with angles and materials before coming up with the exact edge geometry specification to create this new, thinner, sharper edge. This edge was achieved by changing the included angle (the total of the angles on both sides of the blade) from a range of 35° to 50° to a range of 26° to 32°. This range allows Buck greater flexibility to match the angle of the blade to the function of the knife. The initial part of creating the edge is performed during step #7, hollow grinding, which is a computer controlled, automated machine process. During this grinding process, blades are tapered to a specific profile. This yields a consistent blade thickness at the edge that cannot be duplicated by hand. Then the human hand takes over on an edging wheel. Another key to the success of the Edge2x process is that we converted to using laminated leather stropping wheels instead of stitched cloth. The sturdiness of the leather wheels enables us to eliminate "rollover" (where the edge can lose its ideal keenness) and create razor-sharp blades with consistency.The human touch lessens the risk of burning, which can lower the hardness of the steel. Experienced edgers, who have been with Buck for many years, went through extensive training to learn the new system. It took many months for them to perfect the process, but it has been well worth the effort.A computerized test for edge retention, developed by CATRA (Cutlery and Allied Trades Research Association), is performed on blades for each knife model. For inspection, a laser-measuring device, called a goniometer, is used to check the precise angle measurements to verify that the edge matches specifications. Edge2x blades have been compared against our older Buck blades and evaluated using the CATRA tests, which proved the superiority of our new edging process. With Edge2x Technology, every knife made by Buck is sharper out of the box, holds an edge much longer and is easier to re-sharpen when needed. "​
Note that Buck got a tremendous increase in performance, using the same steel, by changing the blade shape. I added the blue highlight because the indication is that Buck's blade is not just modified at the edge, but along the entire profile. The CATRA test uses a special paper, but it essentially consists of controlled cutting of cardboard, and the Buck blades have been optimized to excel at it. Not a bad thing, since an awful lot of us use our knives for similar things, but it does make it hard to compare steel performance from a Buck blade to another maker's blade cutting cardboard.

I like to do side by side cutting comparisons myself, but I prefer to use manila rope and blades sharpened at a 30° inclusive angle. Once cut, the fibers of the rope pull away from the blade. So blade profile has little impact on the edge retention results.

Anyway, hope that helps.
Frank R
Click to expand...

Frank, Thank you very much
 
Frank,

Responses like yours, with the time and effort involved, is what makes this site so special.

Thanks,

Neeman
 
Am I the only one that wants to cry at the thought of a Buck 110 with a 50 degree edge?
 
well, I just got back today from a 21 day hitch on the illinois river. The only knife I used was the byrd raven. I thinned out the edge before I left. I don't know the exact angle but I freehand sharpened it on a coarse smiths diamond hone. The approximate edge angle is 2X the thickness of the blade. It took some time to bring the edge down from the 30 degree inclusive angle I had it at before I left but once I thinned it out I noticed an extreme improvement in cutting performance and edge retention.

The knife was mostly used to cut through 1 7/8 inch leaving line, made from recycled plastic. the length of the blade made a sawing motion with the knife necessary but the toothy edge cut through it pretty well. I used it to cut several pieces of "cowtail" as well, the strands of 3 strand 2 inch nylon lock line. I also cut through several whole lock lines, and again, a sawing cut was necessary. When I met resistance, or felt the edge sliding rather than ripping at the rope fibers I'd touch it up on a smiths diamond rod with 20 or so passes per side at approximately the same angle. I only needed to reprofile the edge twice during the trip, both times because the blade hit wire cable when cutting the cowtail that fastened them into a coil. Last night I loaned the knife out to the mate who did the same thing, and I could hear the blade hit the wire from 10 feet above him. (he was on a load and I was on an empty barge). There are a few nicks in the edge where it hit the wire, but it is still sharp.

The blade got wet last night in the rain and I noticed a few corrosion spots on it this afternoon, but they look like surface corrosion. the blade is coated black and the spots appear irridescent.


I'll post more later on my observations.

pete
 
I just got back from a trip to massachusetts where I got do do a little fishing (didn't catch anything) and spend a morning on cranes beach. I carried the raven with me. There was a heat wave and I sweat a lot, but it didn't seem to affect the knife in my pocket. I used it when fishing to cut up some clams for flounder bait. I didn't wash it afterwards, instead I wiped it down and put it in my pocket again

I took it to cranes beach as well for no other reason than I like to always have a knife. I used it to sharpen a stake of drift wood and to carve a driftwood heart for my girlfriend. We then took a walk along the beach and I found a lobster trap in fairly new condition partially buried in the sand in a shallow tidal pool. I could not move it to drag it above the high tide line and I don't like to leave them where they might still be able to catch sea life. I used the raven to cut the bungee cord holding the door shut and to cut the netting that makes up the heads to make it easier for sea creatures to escape should they get trapped inside. In order to cut the netting and some of the bungees the knife had to be submerged in the seawater. I didn't rinse it after I used it. There were very minimal spots of rust on the blade and after a few days I noticed that it was a little more difficult to open it. WD-40 should fix that after a fresh water rinse to get the sand out.

As it stands I would recommend 8Cr13MoV as a good blade steel. I've had good results with it using it in the field for day to day cutting chores and for hard use. I would suggest using it at a thinner edge angle than the factory angle as I noticed a significant increase in cutting performance. I keep my edges coarse so I don't have any input on how the steel would perform with a highly polished edge.

My 2 cents, YMMV.

Pete
 
Thanx for sharing Pete. Real world experiences are always appreciated. Sounds like a good time.

sal
 
Pete1977 said:
As it stands I would recommend 8Cr13MoV as a good blade steel. I've had good results with it using it in the field for day to day cutting chores and for hard use. I would suggest using it at a thinner edge angle than the factory angle as I noticed a significant increase in cutting performance. I keep my edges coarse so I don't have any input on how the steel would perform with a highly polished edge.
Click to expand...

I usually take my edges to about 1000 grit and 8-12 degrees per side with a microbevel. I have a Cara Cara out on pass around right now that was taken flat to the stone. It will take an edge quicker than S30V for me but will lose the high degree of sharpness after cutting some cardboard or other abrasive media. From there it will keep cutting for a while but will not shave, push cut newspaper etc.

I'm surprised your sweat didn't cause any rust spots. That was the first thing that made me notice the slightly lower corrosion resistance of the steel compared to other commonly used stainless steels. I'd get surface rust spots on the spine and near the spine on the sides from keeping it clipped to my pants when being active in the summer. It never resulted in pitting so they always polished off without much effort.

I buried a Byrd blade and a Buck 110 blade in the dirt for a year and the Byrd looked noticeably worse than the Buck. Neither blade is totally unusable though.


 
Last edited:
My Spyderco tenacious has the same steel and it is really something good, which was superising. It came out of the box razor sharp, i put it through the sharpmaker and made it hair splitting sharp. The blade has held its edge for a while and its an amazing knife for the price.
 
bladeeagle said:
It's made in china, sanrenmu folding knives. all of their folders are made from 8Cr13Mov
Click to expand...

Actually, I just checked their website. They claim their folders are made of 8Cr14Mov,

NOT 8Cr13Mov.

BTW I own a CaraCara, it's the only thing I own that's closely related to the Spyderco line and I have to say Sal, it's an EXCELLENT knife for the money.

It's made me think about buying a proper Spydie.

And the steel used in it is excellent, much better than that used in knives in the same price range made by competitors.
 
Last edited:
Guys, IMHO everybody is making tooo big a deal out "this steel is better" and NO "that steel is better!" ALL knife steels eventually have re-sharpened after use. As long as the steel holds its edge long enough to accomplish the intended task and not chip out or break during use then its a good knife steel. Whats the big deal if one steel holds its edge a hair longer than the other? Eventually they both are gonna have to be resharpened. And sometimes a softer steel is not such a bad thing especially when it is time to re-sharpen! ,,,VWB.
 
vwb563 said:
Guys, IMHO everybody is making tooo big a deal out "this steel is better" and NO "that steel is better!" ALL knife steels eventually have re-sharpened after use. As long as the steel holds its edge long enough to accomplish the intended task and not chip out or break during use then its a good knife steel. Whats the big deal if one steel holds its edge a hair longer than the other? Eventually they both are gonna have to be resharpened. And sometimes a softer steel is not such a bad thing especially when it is time to re-sharpen! ,,,VWB.
Click to expand...

DUDE! To the plank wit ye!

If all you are doing is opening envelopes or a package here and there, edge retention does not matter.

If you are in the middle of a cutting job that takes a sharp blade, and your blade won't let you finish the job because it goes dull due to poor edge retention of the steel, then it matters. This has happened to me and I hated it. Therefore, to me, edge retention matters. YMMV, and apparently does.
 
most any decent knife steel if sharp in the beginning will complete most cutting chores. if its that big of a job that it completely dulls a blade until it just wont cut anymore then you have might have been better to have used a box cutter with replaceable blades for the job. i personally have never run into a cutting chore that my 440 stainless case or swiss army knives cannot handle and they neither one are considered to be made of high end stainless. just remember,, all knife steels eventually go dull and when that happens,,well i had much rather sharpen a swiss army knife or similar steel than try to sharpen a s30v or zdp-189 blade. they are a bear to sharpen and IMHO not worth the slight edge they have in edge holding over say a medium grade stainless.,,,but thats just me anyway,,,VWB.
 
vwb563 said:
Guys, IMHO everybody is making tooo big a deal out "this steel is better" and NO "that steel is better!".
Click to expand...

That tends to happen on knife discussion forums. That's what discussion forums are here for. There are people who are fascinated by knife steels and their properties, and like to discuss them, and then there are people like you.;)

Regards,
3G
 
Yea man! I'm a lover not a fighter! LOL! I'm more in love with the "knife" itself than the steel that it is made of!,,,VWB.
 
vwb563 said:
Yea man! I'm a lover not a fighter! LOL! I'm more in love with the "knife" itself than the steel that it is made of!,,,VWB.
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with that! I, too, like a knife for more than just it's blade steel. However, in my opinion, it's the "steel snobs" who constantly get manufacturers and steel companies to "raise the bar," so I enjoy watching the back and forth and learning at the same time.:thumbup:

Regards,
3G
 
3Guardsmen said:
Nothing wrong with that! I, too, like a knife for more than just it's blade steel. However, in my opinion, it's the "steel snobs" who constantly get manufacturers and steel companies to "raise the bar," so I enjoy watching the back and forth and learning at the same time.:thumbup:

Regards,
3G
Click to expand...

yea ill agree with that! im just funnin but i do think too much is made over blade steel. if i like a knife and its design i dont let the steel its made of stop me from buying it unless its just pure crap steel. i can sharpen any type steel and like i said before most any good knife steel holds a good enough edge for me..;) .VWB.
 
vwb563 said:
yea ill agree with that! im just funnin but i do think too much is made over blade steel. if i like a knife and its design i dont let the steel its made of stop me from buying it unless its just pure crap steel. i can sharpen any type steel and like i said before most any good knife steel holds a good enough edge for me..;) .VWB.
Click to expand...

Hi VWB,

Do you the design because of it's appearance? Or you like the design because of it's function (eg: ergos, grinds, edge geometries, etc.)?

There are many ways to enjoy a knife. Some of us (Steel junky's) particularaly enjoy knowing about the steel in the knife and how that steel serves the edge.

The diffeence betwen the performance of steels in edge retention, corrosion resistance and toughness (the big 3) is more than "a little" when steel properties are explored.

sal

----------------------------------------------------------------

"The edge is the knife. The blade is there to support the edge. The handle is there to control the edge. When you select a knife by looking at just the handle, perhaps you are exploring the wrong end of the knife? A lot of people get married that way, but that's another story" ;)
 
Both! I dont care how well a knife might perform if I can't stand the looks of it. But, I also hate a knife that I like the looks of only to find out its performance sucks. And I guess my expected performance level is low compared to some on here because as long as the knife holds a decent edge it'll do for me. Personally I'd rather have a steel like 154cm, 440, or similar steel as to some of the new "supersteels." Why you ask. They are a bear to sharpen when the time comes. And it will eventually come sooner or later no matter what steel your knife is made of. I'd rather sharpen my knives a little more often and have an easy time while doing it as opposed to less often and have a frustrating time while doing so like trying to get s30v to a hair shaving sharpness. I actually enjoy "spending time with my knives" as I call it sharpening, cleaning, and lubing them. But thats just me. Maybe some on here are the opposite. I guess thats why there are so many different steels available today. And by the way,, I do thank you Mr. Glesser for asking my opinion on this matter and keep up the good work designing and building those Spyderco knives, some of the best knives on the planet!,,,VWB.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top