A blade is a blade.

F

FOPoMATIC

Joined
Aug 12, 2000
Messages
7
FOPoMATIC courtsied:

First post,here. Thought I'd make it a good
one...

In a stroke of controversy, thought I'd put
forth this gem, for debate:

I've listened time & again, to the
jap-o-centric, how thier swords could slice
through hoover dam & not suffer a nick.

I actually study under a master of european
swordsmanship. Rapier, sabre, smallsword,
zweihander. Despite all of the above, I've
drawn this conclusion:

The japanese swordsmiths made fine blades.
The euro swordsmiths made fine blades.

Japanese swordsmen developed highly effective
techniques, over a period 1000 to 1500 years.

Euro swordsmen developed highly effective
techniques, over a period 1000 to 1500 years.

See where I'm going with this?

The two distintively diffrerent cultures
developed vastly different weapons & fighting
styles, to complement vastly different styles
of warfare.

Does this make either one superior/inferior?

NO. No culture can use swords in warfare, for
1000 to 1500 years, without developing highly
effective weapons & fighting techniques.

To say that one be vastly superior to another
is sheer ignorance.

Does this irritate anyone?
If so, state an intelligent rebuttal.

FOPoMATIC

------------------
"It is too bad that
death often results from dueling, for duels other-
wise keep up politeness
in society"- Napoleon
 
1000-1500 years ago is dramatically stretching it for Japanese swords. Not a big deal, just informing.

Otherwise, I pretty much agree.
Martial arts and the weapons utilized for such were formed around the base of circumstances and situations. Horses for Courses, if you will.

Does not mean we cannot hold preference, but it is wrong to claim superiority.

Shinryû.
 
FOPoMATIC conceded:

Hmm, I'd thought sword technology developed
along a similar timeline, in europe and asia.
Perhaps I should've supplanted "japanese"
with "Asian"? It's good to hear someone
state for the record, that euro swords/skills
are NOT inferior, to thier asian counterparts
. Obviously, you are a learned one. (g)

Many thru history have considered the
pattern-welded damascus-type blades, to be
finest europe & middle-east ever produced.
(I don't neccesarily agree) How would you
compare this smithing technology, to the
best of asian multi-folding techniques?

Would you again say damascus, with it's armor
piercing performance, equal but different?

Of course, the standard katana might have
rather poor performance, in penetrating
heavy armor. Did however excel in opening
aproximately 1" deep, 4"wide gash in unarmored opponents. (this would generally be a fatal wound, for the time period.)

Question: Did asian/japanese smiths produce
any sword weapons, specificaly designed to
be "armor-piercers?" (rather than pikes/
polearms?) A pure asian "thrusting sword"?
Did any such thing exist, in eastern asia/
japan? Was there any need for such a weapon?

Burning questions.

FOPoMATIC

------------------
"It is too bad that
death often results from dueling, for duels other-
wise keep up politeness
in society"- Napoleon
 
I agree, each side has their adherents....both sides will decry theirs is the best...and both will have those ready to "slice and dice" to prove it.

I am reminded of a story I heard, about a Samurai dueling with an American Naval officer about the time of Perry. The Naval Officer won. It was not a matter of whose sword was best ..it was sword play style. But that did not mean the European one was better...only different and one the Samurai was not familar with.

In either case, both disciplines call for dedication in spirit, mind and heart to be a master in either art.




 
FOPoMATIC agreed, vigorously:

Well met. I wish there was as much mass media
treatment of euro masters of sabre, rapier,
etc., as there is for the asian arts.

If that were the case, the inherent
misconceptions of clumsy, clunky, armor-clad
euro warriors, stumbling about the battle-
fields of europe- might not exist. The idea
that armor technology superceded the need for
quality weaponry, or combat training is
absurd.

The civilian dueling masters wore no armor;
is a well-crafted rapier, in the hands of
a skilled fighter, any less deadly than a
katana? no.

I think a supreme swordmaster would be master of BOTH eastern and western disciplines.

Give me time. (hee, hee)

Courtesy of:

FOPoMATIC 2000

------------------
"It is too bad that
death often results from dueling, for duels other-
wise keep up politeness
in society"- Napoleon
 
Fopomatic,

While I agree with your basic premise i.e. there is no way you can say that one cultures swords/martial systems are superior to the others I did find something to nit pick about.

"Many thru history have considered the
pattern-welded damascus-type blades, to be
finest europe & middle-east ever produced.
(I don't neccesarily agree) How would you
compare this smithing technology, to the
best of asian multi-folding techniques?"

You more are less are talking about apples and oranges here. Pattern welding was done in Europe because like a good woman good steel was hard to find. Therefore, euro smiths pattern welded the good the bad and the ugly together so that they could make a blade. The patterns are really pretty but they are merely a by product of the process. In contrast Japanese folding techniques were developed to actually give different parts of the sword different properties. The spine to be springy and soft for instance and the edge to be harder but more brittle.

"Would you again say damascus, with it's armor piercing performance, equal but different?"

Damascus has no special armor piercing ability. Damascus is just layered steel plain and simple. If it had any special abilities in that regard everybody would have wanted it during the age of full plate but that is simply not the case.

 
Triton:

I generally agree with what you had stated, although I think you may be confusing the folding techniques of Japanese blades with the laminate constructions and heat treat. The folding was typically to squeeze impurities out of the steel. Generally. Otherwise yer basically hitting the nail on the head. Thanks
smile.gif


FOPoMATIC:

The Japanese sword, while not being designed for the concept of piercing usually, was still utilized for thrusts quite often. Also, a variation of tanto called Yoroi Doshi were used as armor punchers, as they were basic tanto with super-thick blades.

Laurie:

I've heard stories of such things happening. As you are knowledgeable, I think generally you and I would agree that it is the superior warrior with superior resolve who will win. "Ya gotta want it bad enough." Anyone can defeat anyone.

and in General...
I'm very very saddened every time I see people trying to cut something down or push something up for the sake of comparison. I do enjoy European swordsmanship. I enjoy Japanese swordsmanship more. All a matter of preference. But why compare? What merit is there in comparing other than to try starting a biased argument?

Great weapons are Great weapons...great warriors are great warriors.

Shinryû.

[This message has been edited by Robert Marotz (edited 08-13-2000).]
 
Well couple of terms and concepts need to be squared away.

First of all, if by "heavy armor", you're refering to European plate armor, then no sword of any culture would be effective against it. It was pretty much sword proof.

Second, "damascus" refers to blades made in the Middle East and India. They were not of European origin. The Viking swords you are thinking of are the pattern-welded swords. Although we used these two terms interchangably today, they are totally different smithing techniques.

Early North European pattern welding is very similiar to modern South Asian forge styles (Moro style blades). Which is in turn related to East Asian forge folding (Japan, China, Korea). North European pattern welding and East Asian forge folding are basically operating on the same principles. There are patterns in a katana, just look closely.

Near Eastern damascus on the other hand, is actually quite distinct from any other cultural style in history, and argueably the most scientifically advanced. Which reminds me of a story. . .



[This message has been edited by tallwingedgoat (edited 08-13-2000).]
 
Legend has it Richard the Lion Heart once met with his rival Saladin in his tent.

To impress Richard, Saladin tossed his cushion into the air and easily sliced it in half with his prized sword. Not to be out done, Richard drew his great sword and split his wooden chair in half in a single stroke.

Two very different swords, made for different tasks, both great in their own way.
 
FOPoMATIC replied:

Thanks for setting me straight,on several
points. I do not claim to be an expert,still
learning, everyday. Obviously, I have also
fell victim to some of the plethora of
misinformation, out there.

In all honesty, I"d hoped that by comparison,
I'd reveal the inherent equality of both
spheres. I may be just a tad weighted on the
euro side, as I'm studying this presently.
In addition, due to the lack of recognition &
the misconceptions surrounding the euro side,
I may be overcompensating slightly.

When I refer to a sword defeating armor,
I generally tend to mean chain, scale, rather
than full plate. Although, I believe I've
read that plate could be breached, by certain
heavy thrusting swords. Is this yet more bad
information?

another thought; Since it's been stated that
pattern-welding was a product of scarce iron
resources, why did the japanese need not
resort to this? Japan is notoriously poor
in resources, needed for making steel.

A well-informed lot, here. Great to see!

FOPoMATIC


------------------
"It is too bad that
death often results from dueling, for duels other-
wise keep up politeness
in society"- Napoleon
 
FOPoMATIC opening his snuffbox, sneezed:

In addendum-

While I'm learning Italian & Spanish schools
of swordsmanship, allow me to point out;

My wife studies Seido Karate, at an
outstanding school, here in NYC. I spend a
lot of time in the Dojo, observing the
martial atmosphere, there. From this direct
experience, I've developed a healthy respect
and admiration for the discipline, ethics,
power of japanese martial culture. It is
NOT my intention to understate thier arts,
in any way.

There is simply such a dearth of reliable
documentation on euro arms & armor, I've
even become misinformed- though I've done
a fair amount of reading, on the subject.
I'd like to see more legitimate studies
on the subject.

FOPoMATIC

------------------
"It is too bad that
death often results from dueling, for duels other-
wise keep up politeness
in society"- Napoleon
 
I have no idea about how good your sword play is FOPoMATIC. But your word play is first rate. Your prose style is quirky, unusual, enormously entertaining, and I'm sure, quite effective at disarming opponents. We shall see if the Coupe de Grace is possible here in this little arguement.

I think the honorable path is to honor Both traditions. Which is superior begs all sorts of unanswerable questions and is a futile strategy frought with peril. It looks to me like no one is particularly interested in attacking you. I do find this little discussion an amusing diversion.

Oh, please don't courtsey in here again. It's against the court rules.
wink.gif


Paracelsus, alchemist of words. They are better weapons than swords (at least at a distance)
 
Firstly, swords were not used against plate....you had bashing weapons for that and there were thicker "punching" weapons. Armour thickness was not uniform but thinner in some areas while thicker in others where most needed. The average full harness in the High Middle Ages...weighed about 60 lbs total and this did not change much even up to the Rennisaince. The weight is distributed around the body and not all the parts hung off the shoulders as you see the harnesses modeled on stands in museums. There were areas a sword could get to but none this "stabbing through the breastplate" with a sword stuff you see in movies or else why wear it?

Tournament Armour was heavier and specialized...this is where many people get their misconceptions.

I read about that story of Saladin and Richard....(the movie "King Richard and The Crusaders"(1954) made use of that trick by putting a hot wire along Rex Harrison's sword to cut the scarf in two. And added to the mystique of "Damascus" blades since).

Patternwelding was just a way of twisting the steely rods with softer as you say. But it is more than that. The Western smiths also had to know what parts of the sword to keep softer while another had to be harder/tougher. This is the tempering/annealling process.

There were mines in Europe that did produce fine grade ore to make good steely blades from. The ores from Noricum (on the Danube) had an unusually high proportion of manganese and titianium being relatively free from phosphorus, arsenic and sulphur. It has been found as early as 500 BC, Celtic smiths used this and when the Romans took over ...these mines were government controlled.

When the Romans left and centralized control was gone....such mines closed down and the smiths had to be satisfied with surface ores and old workings. Then about the 9th Century, when conditions were more settled so new mines could be openned and smelting sites be established did the swords change.

It was about this time the "Ulfberht" blades were being produced from this area from the use of superior ores and efficient funaces. These blades were lighter, tougher tapering more sharply away from the hilt so that the point of balance came nearer to the point. The older pattern welded blades were more parallel sided. This meant the Ulfberht blades were better at slashing and thrusting. A more "alive" feeling in the hand.

Some tests were done on three pattern welded blades from Norway and found to have 0.414-0.052% carbon content while a couple of "Ulfberht" swords found in Norway had 0.75% and higher. "Ulfberht" became such a trademark of quality...swords were made 200 years later with this name enlaid into the groove....rather like a "trademark". Or rather like the "Andreas Farrara" name on Scottish Baskethilts....long after this smith was dead and gone.

It is also the way Steel has to be made tough and yet keep it's "spring". The Spring Steel alloy, Kirby makes his blades from has this high content of Manganese...and when tempered/annealled in the traditional way. The blade is left tough and springy. To give, returning to true and not take a "set". "Tough" is not the same thing as "Hard". The process should not make the blade hard thoughout so that it could be brittle as in furnace hardening. It is the knowing where and what part.

Kirby learned this when he first started out forging at 14 back in the mid 1950s. He had a mentor who was a local machinest who was born on a US Cavalry post at the turn of the 20th century and loved to make his own blackpowder guns from scratch. He was also an excellent metallurgist and showed Kirby "the Riddles of Steel". Kirby took this knowledge and applied it to his bladeforging. He has been making/tempering/annealling his blades the same way for the past 45 years. When Oakshotte came out with "Archaeology of Weapons" in 1960, it only confirmed what Kirby already knew from his work...and a satisfaction he was doing it right.

You have to remember, when Kirby first started, there were no Armourers or Swordmakers to learn from or working....all this was religated to musty museums and the Armourer's Art quite "dead". Blacksmithing in general was considered on its way out at the time.

(Gads, this is turning into a manuscript!)

Lastly, Kirby can make a patternwelded blade and he could hammer out his blades using billet form instead of already made leafsprings. It is the cost and time that most people would not pay for though...as this is Kirby's life work from the beginning. More than just a profession or career. His heart/spirit is in all his blades.



[This message has been edited by Laurie Wise (edited 08-13-2000).]
 
FOPoMATIC:

In response to your question, the Japanese DID use different ways of efficiently using steel for blades due to low resources. While there are some of us who feel some of the best blades were not made using these, laminate constructions like Kobuse were utilized often. The reason is that while there was some steel available, it wasn't all high-carbon stuff. But instead of using it in a standard pattern-weld, they used the different grades of steel (hagane/kawagane and shingane) in different areas...sometimes just a core and an outer jacket, sometimes a core, an edge, and 2 sides, lots of different methods. They were utilized to make use of the steel they had efficiently while still making a sword with a hard cutting edge. Also swords with a cored lamination technique are easier to bend but difficult to break, sorta like stiff taffy. While being bendable isn't all that great in general, it did help emphasize necessity of good technique, as well as being useful as munitions-grade.

They took measures to conserve steel resources as well, just with different methods.

Shinryû.
 
Robert, all I can say is oops! You are correct, I did indeed get the two mixed, they are in fact usually mixed in this poor little brain of mine. I was wondering though, I thought the purpose of the folding was in fact to develop the crystalline structure of the metal rather then to remove impurities. Yes? No?
 
FOPoMATIC could but stammer, in amazement:

Laurie:

My word! You posess knowledge beyond any
mere mortal. Were do you get all this info?
Aside from being a smith, yourself, are you:

An archeologist?
A museum curator?
An immortal?
All of the above?

This is not sarcasm- I seem to have no luck,
finding books on specific subject matter like
this. The most useful book I've found so far,
would be Charles Henry Ashdown's European
Arms & Armor. (which I've just started to
read.)Also, I've copied & pasted the text of
your last post, & saved it as a word doc, for
future reference. Thank you, M'lady.

Paracelsus:
As to my Prowess with swords; I could state
that I am simply death on two legs. The fact
of the matter- Alas, I'm merely a lowly
apprentice, in the early stages of training
under a true master. I'm afraid my wit is
much sharper,than my current fighting skills.
I am working diligently, to learn all I can.
(I do hope you weren't planning on
challenging me, to sabres at dawn.)

I am pleasantly surprised, by the level of
expertise, I'm finding here. I am most
grateful, for any reliable information I can
get!

FOPoMATIC


------------------
"It is too bad that
death often results from dueling, for duels other-
wise keep up politeness
in society"- Napoleon
 
Triton:

There's a lot of debate as to the actual purposes and effects of the folding.

Generally it is believed that it is used to squeeze impurities out. There are some who believe that with proper "folding" technique, there are added benefits given to the steel. Also with proper thermal cycling during and after the welding, the grain is probably refined the most.

Again, there's lots of differing opinions about it...All I know is that I *love* it...and it adds significantly to the effects of the hataraki.

Shinryû.
 
Pretty neat thread. I tried to start something similar, but it faltered.

Anyway, on the original topic, I think it's a matter of personal preferrence. For me, one type of sword might be better (fits my style better), for you, another. It is not so much the sword itself, as the matching of the right sword to the right person. I prefer light and quick swords with at least a handle-and-a-half grip. Partially, this is due to my height (or lack thereof
smile.gif
), as a large sword would be hard for me to use effectively. For a very large person, a heavy sword which can deliver a very powerful blow, but cannot be steered as well, might be better. As I said, matching the sword to the user is the important part, and is why there will never be one 'best' sword, as what is best for me might not be best for you. I like that; diversity is nice.

--JB

P.S., Laurie, can you post the address to Kirby's site? I know you did in one of the early threads in this forum, but I can't seem to find it.

P.P.S., ever notice how sabers and katanas are vaguely similar? Not identical, but you can definitely see some similarities. Vastly different cultures arriving at a somewhat similar weapon independently, for use in somewhat the same ways. Just a thing that always interested me...

------------------
e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
FOPoMATIC- I suggest you read the thread marked "sword question-east meets west" you will find alot of useful info there. Welcome aboard.

------------------
The thorn stands to defend the Rose, yet it is peaceful and does not seek conflict
 
LOL....I have a long avid interest in all kinds of history and have a very good memory. Being married to Kirby for nearly 30 years watching/helping him in the shop, has also given me insight books can only touch on. Being his researcher when he is working in the shop, is another and having a small but very good Arms and Armour library that grows with time here at our place. It helps to have friends and being involved with groups with similar interests as well.

So, perhaps an amature Archaeologist or "walking Library" (been called that) would be closer, but by no means an "immortal" though (grins).

Kirby's site is http://members.tripod.com/~kirbywise

The photos and background pages are pieces he has made for others in the past. He is not limited to just what you see.


 
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