A radical theory, and leaving the world of expensive modern knives behind

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MarkN86 said:
Maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but I'm not sure you'll make many friends when you come on a board full of experienced knife enthusiasts and knife makers, claim superiority to others, then put down everyone else's techniques and choices. There are people on these boards that have been making knives longer than you have been alive, let alone using them.

I didn't post to chew on ya though, there's a lot of merit to what you're saying. There was a video I saw a while back talking about how the frontiersmen and mountain men of the 1800s used nothing but basic slab handled butcher knives and did fine with them. They carried an axe for splitting and felling rather than trying to baton or chop with a knife, the knife was designed to take apart an animal or do knife stuff rather than be a log splitter. Back in those days breaking, damaging, or losing your knife could be a very serious problem if you were far enough away from a settlement, considering you'd be without one for possibly weeks. A tough, thin blade that could flex but would not snap was more valued than edge holding alone. The thin blade and lower wear resistance aided in field sharpening as well.

Modern knives are asked to cut different things than older knives used to be, thus the change in edge geometry and steel composition. I prefer a balance of thinness and strength myself, but I can see the value in a stout fixed blade.
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I don't mean to come off like a jerk, but I don't put much effort into hiding it either, so I apologize.

I'm just sick of knives that are stupidly designed and overpriced, which is like 90% of everything on Knifecenter, Amazon, etc I've accumulated over the years. Dead weight, completely inappropriate geometry, insulting factory edges, lack of basic features, I'm done with all of it. The old designs are better. I'm not some poor person taking a "sour grapes" attitude towards things I can't afford, I'm someone who's had it all and am just disillusioned by years of bad performance and nerve-wracking marathons at the bench stone. The cheap, simple, timeless knives I've been using at work this whole time were the holy grail all along.
 
Chopaholic said:
Yes it is. I've broken and seen broken countless knives applied with this technique. Every time you see a review or video with a broken survival knife, it is almost always the case that the knife was broken by batoning it. To survive such use, the knife must have a full-profile tang with absolutely no weak points, a soft temper, and even then it is still inferior to just making a few wedges and batoning those instead. Batoning is just plain dumb.
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Batonning it with the wrong technique.

That isn't "modern knives'" fault...it is your techniques fault.

You can baton with an Opinel if you do it correctly.
 
Again, we run into "need" vs "want". ;) Just because a 1972 Fiat 124 Spyder is (was) a heck of a sports car, doesn't mean a Ferrari isn't more fun even though it is not needed. I love the old knives like my Old Hickory 7" butcher and others, but I also love having my Cold Steel Trailmaster (which the OP considers WAY too thick) by my side in the "way out" places, and I have spent A LOT of time out there in the last 50 years or so. I also doubt the OP has used knives more than I have (in camping, packing, hunting, and yes, combat, plus extensive cooking etc.) and, although some good points were made, I find his? posts to be rather pompous, particularly on BF where there is such a wealth of experience. :rolleyes:
 
I am not a big fan of many modern knives. I appreciate great knife design and much of it is old.

But making a claim like you have done, that the old designs and materials exceed modern ones in every way is utter nonsense.

And claiming people who feel modern knives work well are "idiots" who dont know what they are doing is insulting and further degrades your arguments.

Enjoy your knives.
 
jdk1 said:
Maybe you’ve taken some valid points and observations and taken them too far. Your daily knife use offers insight, to be sure, but it’s cutting meat...all day. Not really covering all that an outdoorsman might want to do with a knife.

The value of chopping while hiking/hunting/camping/whatever can be debated, but it’s a handy ability to have in a small, portable blade. I’d rather not carry a hatchet or axe all the time. Having a knife capable of it in a pinch can be desirable. Plenty of through hikers don’t carry any knife and their ok. That doesn’t mean knives are useless.

On a KNIFE forum, we tend to obsess over and enjoy aspects much more theoretical than practical. Most of us get that. Saying an Old Hickory can be a great outdoor knife is fine. Saying it beats all others, unless the user is stupid, isn’t.
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Did I mention that I'm an experienced all-around outdoorsman as well? I've chopped down acres worth of trees with every implement known to man. I've turned pine snags 9" in diameter into piles of split firewood using nothing but 3" folding knives. I've had nearly every heavy chopping knife under the sun; Ontarios, ESEEs, Condors, Beckers, TOPS, you name it.

The "axe vs knife" debate took up a lot of space in my mind for a long time many years ago, used to get into silly internet debates about it almost every day, with my own views changing just as frequently. I've developed a stable opinion over the years to the effect that trying to lend any significant amount of chopping power to a knife basically kills every unique advantage it may have had over a hatchet. Youtube is full of mall ninjas reviewing $200-$300 survival knives weighing 24 oz or more. A Cold Steel tomahawk weighs exactly the same or less, will outperform any of these knives at absolutely anything, and costs $20. I'm all done with "survival knives".
 
marcinek said:
I am not a big fan of many modern knives. I appreciate great knife design and much of it is old.

But making a claim like you have done, that the old designs and materials exceed modern ones in every way is utter nonsense.

And claiming people who feel modern knives work well are "idiots" who dont know what they are doing is insulting and further degrades your arguments.

Enjoy your knives.
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I would have thought it was nonsense years ago too.
 
Steel was not "perfected" decades ago (let alone centuries).
The formulation and production of it is an ongoing human endeavour, with advancements all the time.

The only really valid observation from this whole thread is that older designs of knives and many older steels work pretty well...they do. But that's it. There will continue to be advancements in material science that impart certain advantages, and every so often a new design/tweak of blade, handle or mechanism will improve things too. :)
 
marcinek said:
Batonning it with the wrong technique.

That isn't "modern knives'" fault...it is your techniques fault.
You can baton with an Opinel if you do it correctly.
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You can't froe a knife through a knotty, uncooperative firewood log without using the "wrong" technique you're referring to.
 
Chopaholic said:
It'

Yes, that's one of the few survival knives on the market that can handle that kind of use. I'd wager thousands of kabar USMC knives ave been snapped in half by using them this way. That all became moot to me several years ago when I discovered that improvised wedges were a superior technique for splitting firewood in a camping or survival context. Before that, I was obsessed with batoning and durability just like all the nutcases on youtube.
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My family has been batoning firewood before anyone even knew what batoning was. Superior is just your opinion. I bet I could harvest more firewood and build a fire faster and bigger than yours. I'll only use a knife and folding saw. And I bet my white lightning is stronger than yours...
 
stabman said:
Steel was not "perfected" decades ago (let alone centuries).
The formulation and production of it is an ongoing human endeavour, with advancements all the time.

The only really valid observation from this whole thread is that older designs of knives and many older steels work pretty well...they do. But that's it. There will continue to be advancements in material science that impart certain advantages, and every so often a new design/tweak of blade, handle or mechanism will improve things too. :)
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There is little tangible performance difference between a 400 series knife that could have been purchased during the great depression and one made of any steel invented since. Design and the skill of the sharpener constitute 99% of it. All other factors being equal, you'd have to be a professional who uses knives every day like me to even notice any difference between a knife made of CPM3V and a >$50 knife from one of the major manufacturers of western kitchen and meat processing cutlery. Most knife enthusiasts are so ignorant of and terrible at sharpening that there is no possible way the steel selection in their knives could make any difference in performance whatsoever. Perfect example, I went to thanksgiving with a guy who is an avid chef, and was bragging about $300 Japanese damascus knives he had and how well they perform. I handled them, and the factory edges were distant memories, couldn't even slice paper. I asked him if he owned any water stones, and he didn't know what I was talking about. This kind of abysmal cluelessness about edges and sharpening is typical of nearly every single person I have ever met who was interested in knives, and that is one reason why I chuckle at the notion of some kind of revolution in blade steels. A piece of mild steel from Home Depot in my hands is better than any knife ever made in the hands of the average blade guy out there.
 
Chopaholic said:
Did I mention that I'm an experienced all-around outdoorsman as well? I've chopped down acres worth of trees with every implement known to man. I've turned pine snags 9" in diameter into piles of split firewood using nothing but 3" folding knives. I've had nearly every heavy chopping knife under the sun; Ontarios, ESEEs, Condors, Beckers, TOPS, you name it.
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Well I guess "theory proved."
 
jill jackson said:
I bought this old knife for 25 cents at a yard sale. It's very thin and cuts wonderfully. This morning I used it to cut through a roll of frozen sausage and it went right through.
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Yes, but any number of knives, new or old, would have done the same. Although I am not sure what side of the argument you are arguing, if any.

On the flip side of the argument, I have used a thick spined modern knife to cut a bully stick in half, which I am sure would have ruined my chef knife.
 
Chopaholic said:
This kind of abysmal cluelessness about edges and sharpening is typical of nearly every single person I have ever met who was interested in knives, and that is one reason why I chuckle at the notion of some kind of revolution in blade steels.
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Even more proof! We are interested in knives, hence we are abysmally clueless about sharpening compared to you.

I wish you would have tuned up sooner! Think of the time we have wasted!
 
I like older knife designs myself, but I wouldn’t make a blanket statement by saying they are superior to modern designs in every way. I would put one of Murray Carters knives against just about any kitchen knife on the market.
 
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I saw some of the merits to your points Basically old designs and steel can perform admirably. But you have to admit time doesn't stand still and there is no "perfect" do it all knife.

Variety is the spice of life.
 
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