A word or two on sharpened crowbars

Joined
Feb 16, 2000
Messages
1,385


There is a lot of talk these days about "tactical knives." If you look through the forums,
you will no doubt notice it. When I look through these posts, I can't help but notice that
the word "tactical" has been bastardized quite a bit. Now it basically means BLACK.... I
guess... In one post I think it was summed up rather nicely:

"Is it vouge now to have the thick tactical look or do these knife really have an
advantage? "

With the exception of correcting the misspelling of "tactical" this is a direct quote. I have
no idea who authored this quote, it isn't important. It's the idea I'm after. The thought
that this person, and others, think this way. I can't decide to laugh or vomit.

"Is it VOUGE to have the thick tactical LOOK...?"

As you read this, a great number of young men are out there, ready to trade death for
your protection. Be it their own or another's. That is what tactical means. MADE FOR
WAR.

We are not in the business of a "vouge tactical look". We are in the business of making
tools for those who need them. Warriors who's life depends on their tools. Let me go
ahead and re-phrase that for you. If we build a knife that fails, someone may die. That is
the way we run our business. The fact that people other than warriors buy our knives is
awesome. We love making knives. We do our best to make every customer happy. Be
they a Force Recon Marine or a computer geek. But the geek, (no offence, just a
stereotype) will not generally die if his blade fails. Therefor we build knives for hard -ass
use.

For those of you who prefer to lift your nose to this approach, sorry, its your loss. Look a
little deeper sometime. Take a little time to expand your horizons. Try to understand that
which you cannot fathom. What is it that you dislike about "crowbars?" The thickness?
The loss of ergonomics? Did you know that every Strider Knife is available in any
thickness? In either hollow or full bevel grind. Did you know that we do actually offer
ergonomic handles? Why then , you ask, are they not all ergonomic? I'll tell you...

Ergonomics have only a very small place in my heart. Let me quantify that. Ergonomics on
tactical (Oops) WAR knives, have no place. Here's why: During high stress, fine motor
skill is destroyed. I see all these "knife fighters" looking for blades that feel so great in
your hand, you would think it was their cock. Now...lets insert stress... go run a mile at a
six minute pace, let me punch you in the face a few times, and finally, Ill kick you in the
balls. At this point, the last thing you want is your dick in your hand. You want a chunk
of blade that is locked in. Period. Weather its land warfare and your about to have your
ass handed to you because you need the ammo in that air drop, or CQB and (bummer)
you've made the transition to knife...or...your ass is in a jam on the subway...it doesn't
matter. Comfort is not a thought. Rock solid grip is everything. Who gives a **** about
a hot spot on your hand. My 1911 isn't ergonomic either. It's a big chunk of death. That's
why it work so well.
Knives are tools. Usually design specific. If you want something that a maker doesn't
have, either talk to them about it, they will usually help you out, or move on. There are a
great number of makers out there. Most of which make great knives. Some, like
ourselves, usually stick to what they do best.
Some will make whatever you desire. Look for a style that is pleasing to you and go for it.
But when you speak of that which you do not know, you lose site of who you are. And
the respect of those around you.

For those who serve


Mick Strider


 
Computer geek!!?

(I wonder who he's talking about?)

wink.gif


------------------
Brian_T
brianthornburg@home.com
 
Mick:

Welcome to Bladeforums. I guess I'm the one who wrote about the "sharpened prybars" and mentioned your firm. My original post reads:

"Had a great time at the Blade Show West on Saturday. Finally got to fondle some Busse's and Mission steel knives. Many of the customs were truely spectaclar (and spectacularly priced). One of the things I noticed was many of the makers had knives that were really thick. Tops, Strider, Dawson, ect. liked thick edges even on small knives. This seemed to make for a solid piece but I couldn't help wondering if this really might prove a detriment to penetration and deeper cutting actions. I looked at some of the custom Bowies by Foster, Goddard and others and noted the use of distal taper to make a large blade light and have scary slicing potential. Perhaps these thinner knives might not be as "durable" and the thick set but they seemed to have much better cutting potential. Is it vouge now to have the thick tactial look or do these knife really have an advantage?"

I didn't mean to offend. I didn't mean to demean your products. I didn't single out your firm. Your knives appear very tough and I'm sure are made to not fail under the most extreme circumstances. I agree with you that the word tactical is overused. I don't have a problem with heavy blades - I really like HI khukries. I think my post was asking if the use of thick blades on smallish knives was largely cosmetic or had an application in mind. I guess you've answered that. Now that I can discard my asbestos clothing - for those wondering - I'm not a computer geek or a special forces operative - just a middle aged white collared guy who like knives. :cool




 
Okay...
First of all, you're a stud for coming forward and claiming my clipped phrase. Very honorable indeed.

Secondly, your post didn't offend me. I wanted to address the topic, your post expressed the thought that I was after: The fact that there are people out there who are using knives to do things that maybe shouldn't be done with a knife. But if they did not, your safety would be in jeopardy. Sometimes knives must be tools. Sometimes people forget. That bugs me. Those people should be thought of.

I'm sorry if my posting of your quote was offensive. It wasn't meant to be. I had in fact hoped you would remain unanimous, but am glad you have not. E-mail us, we'll send you a shirt or something.

I kind of like the whole thing to be honest. I could have used a sharpened pry bar many times.

Aren't knives bad ass!


SK
 
Hey Mick...I didn't even know the Strider guys were on Bladeforums until Brian T mentioned it in an email. God, you guys never tell me anything!
biggrin.gif
Welcome...

As for the sharpened crowbar topic, I have to chime in here. I, like many users here, consider knives as tools first. The whole "Art Knife" thing is sort of wasted on me (but I'm working on it)...so is the "tactical fad look". As a dealer (for Strider as well as others), I constantly get calls from customers wanting a "Brand X" knife. Then in conversation, it becomes apparent the "Brand X" knife won't work well for their intended application (something like using a WB to fillet a trout). I will usually suggest that they might want to consider the task at hand and make sure they still want this knife. More often than not, they still buy the "Brand X" knife. In about 50% of the cases, the customer will call back and swap the knife for something more suited to their situation. It's not big deal, it just didn't work for them. The most important thing for me as a dealer is that the customer is comfortable with the knife they carry for the purpose they carry it. The knife MUST fit the application.

Bottom line, knives are VERY diverse tools but not every knife is optimized to work in every application….it can't be. If you want a "Brand X" then by all means you should buy one. But if you're looking for a functional tool, a user should consider the application and check out the products offered by the various makers. If you want a tool you could bet your life on…I would whole-heartedly suggest a Strider. On the other hand, if you wanted a fillet knife… ( Hey Mick, now there's an idea
biggrin.gif
)

Later,



------------------
Cecil Self
Arrow-Dynamics Cutting Tools
Factory authorized dealer for:
Benchmade, Chris Reeve Knives, Strider Knives, Mad Dog Knives, Self Knives, Edge Pro Sharpening systems
 
I'll bite.

I have made negative comments in the past concerning the ergos/comfort of a Strider that I had the oppurtunity to handle.

So, does a knife need be uncomfortable to be functional?

------------------
Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

Review of the World Survival Institute, Chris Janowsky survival knife, the Ranger.

Talonite Resource Page, nearly exhaustive!!

Fire Page, metal match sources and index of information.

"Many are blinded by name and reputation, few see the truth" Lao Tzu
 
MDP,

"Uncomfortable" is way too subjective a term.

Here's another thread on handle ergonomics.

While you may feel the cord-wrapped handle is uncomfortable, I think it may be the finest handle treatment I've ever had the pleasure of using.

To each his own.


Brian_T
brianthornburg@home.com

[This message has been edited by Brian_T (edited 09-20-2000).]
 
Brian, OK, I agree.

But, Mick in his post says

"Comfort is not a thought"

"Who gives a **** about a hot spot in your hand"

That is what I am referring to. Maybe I missed something, or my lack of bad-ass training is showing, but I see no reason that a useful knife cannot be a knife that is comfortable to use.

Now, don't get me wrong, I respect Strider, their warranty speaks volumes about their integrity. But on this one, I do not get what he is saying.

Do good ergonomics and lack of hot spots lead to a less than rock solid grip? If so, I can think of one manufacturer who just got his ass handed to him.

MDP
 
I’m in with you on this one Marion.
According to Webster’s here is what ergonomics means:
Study of equipment design in order to reduce operator fatigue and discomfort
.
While reading the post of Mike it seems that ergonomics to him is something which stands against or decreases performance.
“Ergonomics have only a very small place in my heart. Let me quantify that. Ergonomics on tactical (Oops) WAR knives, have no place. Here's why: During high stress, fine motor skill is destroyed… …You want a chunk of blade that is locked in. Period.”
I personally can’t quite see why ergonomics prevents the user from getting a firm grip on a knife. If fine motor skills are destroyed, shouldn’t it be easier to deploy and hold onto a knife which fits your hand well? To Mike it seems that it’s easier to hold onto an uncomfortable knife.
Mission’s MPK and the whole Dog line have excellent ergonomics. Does that make them inferior to use in a high stress situation? I don’t think so!!!
 
MDP and Ralf:

I think what Mick means is that he'd rather make a super-tough knife with a "grippy" handle than spend his time working on a sculpted "cushy" handle.

If you look at his G-10 handle slabs on the fixed blades and the Strider/Buck folder, you'll realize that they're not aesthetically pleasing nor are they ergonomic. They do, however, provide a VERY sure grip.

Which is more important in a high-stress situation, a comfy handle or a sure grip?

What do you think about when you're using a knife? Are you thinking about how great the handle feels or are you trying not to cut yourself? Do you really use a knife for hours at a time when ergonomics would be more important? Or do you just cut once and put it away?

Food for thought,


------------------
Brian_T
brianthornburg@home.com
 
I just got back from the BAKCA show today, during which I stopped by the Strider table. I now have a better understanding of the appeal. The knives were very impressive in person, as were the two huge guys behind the counter. For some reason, their table reminded me of the film "Aliens" when the Space Marines were loading up to storm the bug planet.

Since there were quite a few Mad Dog, Mission, and Chris Reeve knives on tables across from theirs. I decided to get a feel on the ergonomics issue. These were all excellent knives but I felt the G-10 handle Striders had the most secure grips. This is followed closely by the Reeves and Missions. The Mad Dog knives were very nice but I just didn't like how slippery the handle felt. It's almost as if I'm only hanging on with the finger cutouts. Had there been grease on the handle I would have a real hard time maintaining a solid grip.

I didn't buy one because I didn't need it, not that I didn't want one. Those were some awesome crowbars.



[This message has been edited by tallwingedgoat (edited 09-23-2000).]
 
MDP:

I think the thought here is more of having the knife staying firmly in your grip than of preventing blisters and hotspots. In my experience, if a knife feels "nice" in my hand (like Mad Dogs*), that usually means it won't stay there when I start sweating/bleeding/spilling Guiness on my hands (GOD FORBID!!
biggrin.gif
). I LOVE the feel of my MD ATAK2's handle, but I've had it slip once too often, especially with gloves on. Wet gloves that is. For an in-depth review on a Strider WB (including the grip
smile.gif
), follow this link:
http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/WB.html

*These are just my opinions, and I don't mean to take a "side" for or against any one knifemaker. I love my MD ATAK, and I don't even own a Strider (YET!), but I HAVE used a buddy's BT and loved it as well.

Mick:

Consider me sold on Strider Knives. Now, about this SEAL 2000BT model I saw on a Japanese website...can we expect it to be available in the US? And you're right...knives ARE badass!

--Robert

------------------
"They sicken of the calm, who know the storm."
RFrost5746@excite.com

My Knives

[This message has been edited by rfrost (edited 09-24-2000).]
 
Marion :

So, does a knife need be uncomfortable to be functional?

When I first handled a Strider WB the first thing I thought was how nonfunctional it was. I "confirmed" this by doing a "white knuckle" grip and being rewarded with a nice feeling of pain. Over about a week or so I used the WB at a variety of tasks with about a half dozen or so knives and it kept standing out as the once blade that became nonfunctional very quick. By this I mean that I had to stop working because continuing would have formed, and then broken, blisters on multiple places throughout my grip.

However the story does not end there. I continued this work for many weeks and noticed that the amount of work I could do increased as my hand adapted to the cord wrap. I also reviewed many of what Mick and the other Strider guys had wrote here and in emails we exchanged and then did some work with my grip compromised.

What I found was that the Strider WB was with the exception of one other blade (Project I) the only blade that would remain functional when my grip was effected by any significant lubricant (animal fats, oils, soap, grease etc. ). There are some blades with significant guards that will allow hard stabs, but chopping and prying is not possible because the blade will just twist upon impact or torques.

While I have a lot of blades that have very ergonomic handles, (Phil Wilson light utility hunter), the only two that will remain usable when my hand is lubricated to any significant extent are the Strider WB and Project, they have in common a very aggressive surface which produced a number of very high pressure points which dent into your hand and thus prevent movement. Sounds wonderful doesn't it - well you get use to it.

There is a use for very aggressive surface textures on blades - it may not be for you, but it is still there. Just like everything else, I have broken many blades doing things that the Strider WB can easily take. I twice broke off the tip of a TOPS WB and even after regrinding to a more obtuse profile, it still broke prying in wood when the WB easily mangled it (2x6 plank).

Does this matter to everybody - does everybody need a knife that can do this? No and no. But some do, and Strider makes knives that can - and they will; (a) be open an honest about what thier knives can do and most importantly, (b) they will actually stand behind the statements they make.

One last note about aggressive checkering, it also reduced the amont of pressure you need to exert in order for the blade to remain stable, I have to note Ghostsix is the first person I have ever seen comment about knife training simulating hand injuries. Try using a blade with a variety of fingers nonfunctional, and or reducing your grip compression and see how the security of your blades are effected.

I mentioned this once before on the HI forum and a common reply (to be expected) was - well don't use a knife if you are injured. Yeah well, sometimes you don't have this choice.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 09-24-2000).]
 
Well now...
First of all... sorry I've been slow to respond. Had to bury someone. (I can see how you may take that the wrong way).
Great debate guys. Thanks for the intelligent response. Its so much better than, well...you know.

MDP, thanks for your great post. I'm always happy to see that someone will not cave in to the pressure of debate. I recall your initial impressions of Brian T's WB. Very well spoken.

"So, does a knife need be uncomfortable to be functional?" Of course not. Everyone knows that. My point was of a high stress situation. Bad things are happening and you need your knife...blah...blah...blah... Now stop.

Lets open our field of view a bit. I never really have time to be less than simple. It doesn't apply to my life. So... In their "out of the box" condition, Strider Knives are built for a tactical nightmare. This translates to function over EVERY thing else. Period. But remember, it is always easier to take away than to add. Ergonomics are easy, take a little more off. Smooth it out. All you have to do is ask. Not everyone wants a War knife. Some people just like or need to cut stuff.

So, the question is, how many points of friction do you require? Depends on the situation.

What do you want YOUR knife to do?

Thanks guys

MS
 
Marion :

Do you see anyway to have both? Comfort and Grip in those situations?

Sure, increase your crushing grip strength and the durability of your skin. However in regards as to how to increase comfort and security with regards to handle design, that is a much harder question.

If you are talking about stabbing then a decent guard and butt-hook+swell can prevent you grip from disengaging even if your hand is well lubricated. All that will happen is that your hand will slip and mash into the guard or butt hook. Decently uncomfortable, but not likely to cause significant injury.

However with regard to twisting about the handle, while contours can inhibit this some, and in fact do it well in a clean grip, I have never seen a grip that is secure with this respect that was not very aggressive surface texture wise (WB & Project).

It of course may be quite possible to do this, in fact I have seen people claim it on various knives, none of which look even close to being possible for me based on what I have seen, however maybe their grip is just much stronger than mine.

-Cliff
 
Sorry I'm late, I just found this site on this forum, but I'll attempt to duplicate a post from another that I wrote. I have been carrying a Strider knife as my first line cutting tool for many years-long before anyone outside the Spec ops community had even heard of them. All of sudden these awesome tools were being scrutinized by every walter Mittty of the knife world for something they are not trying to be. In the circle of friends that I have we do discuss various aspects of Strider knives-namely, the coolest, or most recent thing that you have broken or destroyed with them (excluding people, the best to date is putting a WB in a master lock and twisting it until the lock broke). For most knife "experts" this is not normal...they want to talk about ergonomics and grind lines. I carry a Strider DB in my flightsuit in my current aviation assignment as my primary means of extracting myself from the turbine powered flying beer can I call an office. If we crash and I'm covered in Jet fuel in a smoking hunk of metal and I need to save myself or fellow crew members, that chore is going to fall on a short sharpened crowbar. It works for me and most of the clients of Strider who are actually using these things as tools. I wonder if the 300 Spartan Hoplites facing almost 3,000,000 Persians at the battle of Thermopyle sat around their campfire discussing ergonimics and grind lines, or if their knives were vogue. I'll bet they just kept sharpening their TOOLs of war and discussed honor instead.

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He who advances is sure of heaven-He who retreats of eternal damnation.
 
This happens to be my first venture into the Strider Knives Forum and I have to say that this thread has really caught my attention.

Mick,
God Bless you. You explained that better than anyone I have ever known.

I have never been in a combat (War) situation but I do make knives for that particular purpose. I call them "combat knives" because that is what thier intended use is. My brother and I once got into a heated discussion with a well-known smith who told us that one of our combat blades wasn't right for combat because all a warrior uses a knife for is to skin game while in the field. I thought the man was insane (still do). His idea of a combat knife had a maple handle with wire inlay and a shiny, thin blade. He was very adamant about the fact that our blade had a beefy edge geometry and wouldn't do precision cuts. I guess he would rather "LOOK" stylish than survive while in a life or death situation.
I guess what I am trying to say is that most people have no idea what these types of blades are expected to go thru and keep on going.

As far as "ergonomics" go, you can change little aspects of the handle shape to give you a more secure grip without sacrificing "comfort". In a do-or-die situation comfort has no place. The comfort will come AFTER you have survived. During the heat of battle all that would concern me is living. What is a little blister on your hand compared to dying. Anyway, I had to get that off my chest.

------------------
Barry
Jones Knives
"NEW Knives"
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=126319&a=5922856
"For DUTY and HUMANITY!"
Curly, Moe, & Larry
 
Cliff,

Have you ever had an oppurtunity to handle a Japanese influenced, resin impregnated handle? Anyone else? How does it compare in these conditions compared to the Strider?

Mick/Barry- I get it, no life v hot spot, no question. But, is there a way to combine, rock solid combat grip with ergonomics? Say a more comfortable cord wrap over a grip like Cliff describes--> pinky hook and strong guard?

------------------
Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

Review of the World Survival Institute, Chris Janowsky survival knife, the Ranger.

Talonite Resource Page, nearly exhaustive!!

Fire Page, metal match sources and index of information.

"Many are blinded by name and reputation, few see the truth" Lao Tzu
 
Marion, before I ask this, let me say that I'm not trying to be a s.hit, and I may have missed it earlier in the thread. But, have you handled a Strider knife? Is the grip actually that uncomfortable to you?

Different people have different hands, and use a knife differently. I recently read a thread over in, I think, the Wilderness forum, where Cliff and Jeff Randall, using the same machete, had radically different opinions of the handle's comfort because of the way the held the machete and executed their cuts. So, IMO, you or I can't say whether a Strider cord wrap would be uncomfortable to us, based solely on how Cliff, or someone else, says they feel. Now, if EVERYONE that picked up a Strider said it was the chunkiest, clunkiest handle that they had ever held, and hurt like hell to pick up... well, that might be a different story. But, that's not the case here, is it?

I'm not trying to take sides with anyone, and definitely have no vested interest in Strider knives. While I think they look cool as hell, I don't think that they have one that's for me. At least not right now. But, I find this thread very interesting, and am basically just thinking out loud here.

------------------
iktomi
 
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