Advantage to Damascus ?

C

CSSA

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May 12, 2015
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I've been under the impression that the reason that knife makers add layers of a softer metal around a VG-10 or other hard steel core is to create a blade that is less brittle. I just bought a Hattori HD Petty that is a thing of beauty with the various layers of steel in the blade surrounding the VG-10 core. I noticed that Mr. Hattori also makes "JCK Original Hattori Forums FH Series. Designed by Knife Forums members and hand made by premier knife craftsman, Mr.Hattori." These knives appear to have VG-10 blades hardened to the same 60-61 as the HD series, but without the layers of softer steel. Are these knives more brittle than the similar Damascus steel knives? Is there a functional advantage to the damascus steel treatment?
 
An educated guess:

Layers of damascus are added mostly for corrosion resistance: VG10 is not as stainless as some other steels, such as X50CrMoV15 (popular in Germany). It will develop some form of patina. The layers outside the blade are mainly there to avoid darkening. Besides, damascus looks pretty.

Will it make the blade tougher? Definitely, but unless you really abuse your knives, it should no matter.

Just my 0.02
 
Here's the issue. Are there Advantage to Damascus? Well, real Damascus made steel yes, as in steel folded upon itself over and over sometimes hundreds of times. Unfortunately a huge percentage of the blades sold as Damascus are just acid etched and have NOTHING to do with the Damascus process.
I know nothing about your blade in question, but wanted to bring this point up since it is very rarely discussed.
 
More like this is the way that the Japanese have traditionally made knives and they have fancied it up a bit for the modern market. I have the monosteel Hattori "forum" sujihiki in VG-10 and it works just fine and doesn't stain.
Skeptikos said:
An educated guess:

Layers of damascus are added mostly for corrosion resistance: VG10 is not as stainless as some other steels, such as X50CrMoV15 (popular in Germany). It will develop some form of patina. The layers outside the blade are mainly there to avoid darkening. Besides, damascus looks pretty.

Will it make the blade tougher? Definitely, but unless you really abuse your knives, it should no matter.

Just my 0.02
Click to expand...
 
Probably best to clarify what damascus is and is not. True damascus steel is really called wootz steel. It is not two different steels pattern welded together, but rather some sort of carbide banding affect that takes place in a monosteel, best I can describe it. Then there is damascus that we know...which is two steels mixed together and forged out. As in 1095 and 15n20. Then there are clad knives....and there are lots of them from the Japanese market. Sometimes the core steel is clad in wrought iron, sometimes it is clad in what they term 33 layer damascus. Many times this really is not damascus...but rather an etch that is done on the softer layers that surround the core steel to make it look like damascus....kind of. Most of the time, these layers are really more for cosmetics than actual function. How "tough" does a kitchen slicer need to be? Monosteel kitchen knives, be them Shirogomi or VG-10 or what have you do just fine without the jacket layers. And whether it is the carbon steels or the stainless steels, the core steel is usually pretty hard, as in above 60 C scale anyway. So to sum it up....for me anyway....those layers are more cosmetic than function. Is the VG-10 knife with softer stainless layers "tougher" than a mono steel VG-10 blade? Probably so. But, again, we're talking kitchen work, not bushcraft.
 
Thank you all. I've been sharpening my knives and enjoying them for decades, but before this month, I've only had one knife with a layered steel blade. I've started exploring Japanese kitchen knives and was curious about some apparent contradictions between what was being offered and the various claims for some of the (admittedly very attractive) multiple layered steel blades.
 
I think that with Japanese knives in the above $100 category, the cladding is actually low layer count pattern welded steel, much like the outer layers of the all carbon steel suminagashi laminate. Made primary on a rolling mill, I would think.
samuraistuart said:
Probably best to clarify what damascus is and is not. True damascus steel is really called wootz steel. It is not two different steels pattern welded together, but rather some sort of carbide banding affect that takes place in a monosteel, best I can describe it. Then there is damascus that we know...which is two steels mixed together and forged out. As in 1095 and 15n20. Then there are clad knives....and there are lots of them from the Japanese market. Sometimes the core steel is clad in wrought iron, sometimes it is clad in what they term 33 layer damascus. Many times this really is not damascus...but rather an etch that is done on the softer layers that surround the core steel to make it look like damascus....kind of. Most of the time, these layers are really more for cosmetics than actual function. How "tough" does a kitchen slicer need to be? Monosteel kitchen knives, be them Shirogomi or VG-10 or what have you do just fine without the jacket layers. And whether it is the carbon steels or the stainless steels, the core steel is usually pretty hard, as in above 60 C scale anyway. So to sum it up....for me anyway....those layers are more cosmetic than function. Is the VG-10 knife with softer stainless layers "tougher" than a mono steel VG-10 blade? Probably so. But, again, we're talking kitchen work, not bushcraft.
Click to expand...
 
The clear advantage to damascus steel on kitchen knives is that it is purty. And let's be honest, when it comes to higher end knives, a lot of the time pretty is a big factor in deciding to make a purchase. Do not underestimate the subjective value of having a pretty knife even if it does not bestow super-slicing abilities on a blade.
 
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