Advice for toying around with one of those Victorinox coloured knives

[peanutaxis]

Hi,

I have my first diamond stone. A Sharpal 325/1200 3" diamond stone as recommended by OUTDOORS55 on youtube. I thought I'd start with a cheap knife - on of those coloured Victorinox knives. Victorinox

As I imagine it's quite a soft steel I'm wondering if anyone has recommends/suggestions as to what angle to use and methods to sharpen. I found it quite hard to remove the burr from the apex, for instance.


p

 

[TheOne45]

I can't say much about those ''colored Victorinox knives'' but I was toying with sharpening angles on my fathers SAK Camper. Yes; it's relatively soft steel. They say around 56HRc but I didn't bother to measure it.
I sharpened it on my sharpening system. I started at 16 DPS up to 19 DPS and at each angle I did my 'wood test' and at 19DPS the edge became stable - it cut news print after cutting 1/2by1/2 inch spruce stick.
I used #600 and #1200 diamond plate and I removed the burr with 3 micron leather strop without a problem.
Here is a splitted hair right after sharpening:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BDykWU_nafbsRakZwN6oA_oRYRsc-C_V/view?usp=drivesdk

A few weeks later I restored the blade on my coworkers SAK Hunter. I found somehow the same thing about the sharpening angle and stability of the edge so I made it 19DPS.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BcWl3343y0K0fJtZ9VO7F8jrGKsBxOzC/view?usp=drivesdk

If my memory still serves me I think the factory recommends from 15DPS to 20DPS for their kitchen knives and 20DPS for SAK knives.
Would you share a secret how do you plan to sharpen exact angle you imagined with free hand sharpening?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Those Victorinox paring knives are great training aids for sharpening. Blade grinds are very thin - meaning they'll sharpen up quickly. And the steel is of very good quality - meaning it's fine-grained and it will take a very keen & sharp edge. Not very hard at around ~56 HRC or so, as is their spec. But the steel will respond nicely to most any type of sharpening stone, whether it be diamond, aluminum oxide or natural stones. This is why these knives are perfect for practice sharpening, because they'll reward good technique on a variety of stone types. I've used diamond, aluminum oxide (like a Norton India stone), and natural stones on these blades, and all of them can produce great results, each with a different character of sharpness, but each still very sharp in their own right.

Refinement and burr removal are all about using a very, very light finishing touch on the stones to gently abrade the burrs away. The steel's relative softness and ductility means burrs won't simply be broken away by bending them back & forth with deburring strokes from each side. This is why a light touch is needed, to very gently abrade the burrs away instead.

Any sharpening angle down to around 15° per side (30° inclusive) will be fine for general use. And if you really like fine slicing and won't use the knife for hard or abusive tasks, then a sharpening angle down to maybe 12.5° per side (25° inclusive) can be rewarding as well.

Edited to add:
I'd suggest some degree of toothiness is best in a steel like this type. Very high polishing attempts at steel this soft usually results in an apex that'll be too thin & flimsy for its own good. In diamond, I've liked anything from coarse (325) to EF (1200) for a nice toothy bite. And the Norton India Fine (~320-400) is one of my all-time favorites for blades like these, as used in the kitchen. As I mentioned above, a very, very light touch for finishing is what you want to use with stones like these.

 

[TheOne45]

Refinement and burr removal are all about using a very, very light finishing touch on the stones to gently abrade the burrs away. The steel's relative softness and ductility means burrs won't simply be broken away by bending them back & forth with deburring strokes from each side. This is why a light touch is needed, to very gently abrade the burrs away instead.

Did you mean ''very, very light finishing touch'' at sharpening angle?
I'm not sure you can abrade/eliminate the burr that way.
Well; I guess it depends on what you consider a burr free edge. Is a burr free edge when you can't feel the burr with your fingers or you use a different method to check for a burr?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Did you mean ''very, very light finishing touch'' at sharpening angle?
I'm not sure you can abrade the burr that way.
Well; I guess it depends on what you consider a burr free edge. Is a burr free edge when you can't feel the burr with your fingers or you use a different method to check for a burr?

Cutting tests in fine paper will always reveal if any burrs or their remnants are significant enough to be an issue. If they're there, cutting will be erratic from one cut to the next as the burr either snags, drags without cutting or moves around at the apex. If cutting is effortless and consistent through many consecutive cuts in fine paper, then the burrs aren't an issue anymore. This is always how I test for burrs, and the method has never let me down.

I'm certain burrs can be abraded this way, as it's been working for me for several years now - that's where everything essentially clicked for me, in refining technique. It all relies on progressively lightening the pressure as you refine the edge. Increasing the edge angle while doing it can speed things up with burr removal, so long as pressure is still kept as light as possible. But for the most part, increasing the angle isn't absolutely necessary.

 

[TheOne45]

Cutting tests in fine paper will always reveal if any burrs or their remnants are significant enough to be an issue. If they're there, cutting will be erratic from one cut to the next as the burr either snags, drags without cutting or moves around at the apex. If cutting is effortless and consistent through many consecutive cuts in fine paper, then the burrs aren't an issue anymore. This is always how I test for burrs, and the method has never let me down.

I also do a very light alternating strokes at sharpening angle on the last stone-exactly as you described. That way I try to minimize the burr as much as possible. Perhaps I should mention that I don't do stone progression up to #30k mirror edge. I usually use cheap #320 or #400 diamond plate as my first and last stone and sometimes #600 for my Opinels. My knives always (well, usually) shave and cut news print directly from the stone.
But, as soon as I cut a harder material (oak stick in my case) the knife won't cut the paper as good as it was before and it will stutter. So there is still something on the edge-I would say a burr which partially tear of and partially fold over when it hits the wood.
As I can understand the aligned burr can shave and cut paper but it will fold and tear on wood.
But, if I strop the knife on my leather strop loaded with 3 or 6 micron diamond compound after stones I can shave, cut and whittle my oak stick and the knife will cut news print cross grain and shave hair after that without a problem.

Have you tried something similar.... like cut something hard after sharpening and then do the test cutting news print cross grain?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I also do a very light alternating strokes at sharpening angle on the last stone-exactly as you described. That way I try to minimize the burr as much as possible. Perhaps I should mention that I don't do stone progression up to #30k mirror edge. I usually use cheap #320 or #400 diamond plate as my first and last stone and sometimes #600 for my Opinels. My knives always (well, usually) shave and cut news print directly from the stone.
But, as soon as I cut a harder material (oak stick in my case) the knife won't cut the paper as good as it was before and it will stutter. So there is still something on the edge-I would say a burr which partially tear of and partially fold over when it hits the wood.
As I can understand the aligned burr can shave and cut paper but it will fold and tear on wood.
But, if I strop the knife on my leather strop loaded with 3 or 6 micron diamond compound after stones I can shave, cut and whittle my oak stick and the knife will cut news print cross grain and shave hair after that without a problem.

Have you tried something similar.... like cut something hard after sharpening and then do the test cutting news print cross grain?

Yes, I have. For situations where the edge seems to be a little weak after cutting into something harder like wood, a very minimal microbevel done with 1 or 2 passes per side at the lightest touch will cure a lot of those issues. I do this using my Sharpmaker, with passes on the corners of the rods (medium or fine, by preference). I'll usually try it with the narrower setting first (30° inclusive) and see how that holds up. If needs a little more strengthening at the edge, then I'll use the 40° inclusive setting. My cue for gauging how weak or strong the apex is in knives of this type is usually in how well it holds up in kitchen use against a cutting board. If the edge maintains its sharpness against the cutting board over repeated use, I generally don't see the need for microbeveling it at all.

For kitchen knives like Victorinox, doing essentially the same thing on a quality fine kitchen steel honing rod can also work in the same way. I have a Victorinox honing steel which works well for that. For knives which I've regularly been maintaining by either method and knowing that it works well for them, I'll integrate that step into my finishing process when resetting the edges after they've worn over time. The honing steel also seems to work-harden a ductile edge a bit in cutlery steels of this type. So, for a few weeks' time maintaining them this way, the edge will seem to become stronger for awhile through repeated realignment on the honing steel. Past a certain point, after a few weeks, that work-hardening effect will eventually weaken and embrittle the edge, and the edge will become unstable, like a weak burr. That's my cue to take it back to the stone again, to reset the edge.

 

[TheOne45]

I bought this ''piece of art'' from eBay but can't remember when or why. I guess it looked interesting to me at that time.
It's a Browning knife and it looks like one of those ''tactical'' knives some special forces might use .
I measured the hardness .... 50HRc .... in my book just a little better as plain construction steel. I suspect it's 2cr13mov steel (somehow 420 steel copy/equivalent) which will be at about 52-53HRc with a proper heat treatment and right after quenching and without tempering:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/15-MeOvATnnohHcepuO37fWhhEXLcmB_5/view?usp=drivesdk

I sharpened and stropped (6 micron diamond compound on leather) it on my system to exclude any free hand sharpening variables and then I did some oak wood cutting.
You would expect this knife would give up after two or three cuts but the knife still cut news print cross grain after some extensive cutting.
The steel is soft, ductile and gummy. I can't say if it belongs in ''easy to sharpen; you can sharpen it on a coffee mug and similar'' category. I haven't yet fully comprehend this ''easy to sharpen'' meaning but .... you need some practice to deburr this knife. Try to deburr a rubber and you'll see what I'm talking about.
So; it's not just about the steel and hardness ... looks like there are also other factors involved ... geometry; the way you sharpen it; something else?
Anyhow; when I have nothing better to do and I feel I need some free hand sharpening practice I sharpen this knife to check if I still have it in my hands.

So; I could say ... if you can sharpen and deburr this knife you can sharpen and deburr just about anything out there.
A nice knife to practice sharpening.