anhydrous borax ????

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Jul 8, 2001
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Can someone tell me how to make your own anhydrous borax, I read it a while back and it seemed like you are suppose to put borax on a cookie sheet for 2 hrs. in a oven set at 375 degrees. It must be old age because I can't remember for sure and I can't find where I read it :D . Does anyone know.

Thanks

Bill
 
Bill, here how i make it.i use 20 mule team borox, Heat it up in a cruicibe in the forge {It takes a lot of heat to melt} after it melts cool it , it will harden into a glass like substance but it breaks down easily to a fine powder .
 
I found what I needed to know and throught I would go ahead and pass it along in case some one else might be interested. To make anhydrous borax, pour a box of 20 mule team borax in a 9" x 11" baking dish and heat it to 500 degrees in your oven for 2 1/2 hrs.

Bill
 
You can buy ready made anhydrous borax at www.clayartcenter.com. Look at Raw Materials, under "B". $13.50 for 10lbs... I don't know how much your time is worth to you, but...

JD
 
I've never made it, but I do give the billit an ocasional dip in the often large puddle in the bottom of my forge. Just a little seems to go a long way and seems more agressive.

I heard of cutting regular Mule team borax with boric acid powder. I can't remember the ratio, or if it was even boric acid. Anybody tried this?
 
JD,
Thats a nice site you posted, lots of good things in there. Thanks

I just like to get everything I can locally, then I don't have to wait and pay the shipping charges. It took me about 2 minutes to pour 2- 5# boxes of borax into a baking dish and set the oven at 500, came back 2 1/2 hrs later and took it out, not much time spent, total cost for 10# $6.00, That site wants $13.50 plus 19.00 to ship, the money saved was well worth my 5 minutes spent.
But I'm just a poor knifemaker with poor ways. :D

Bill
 
Bill when you used the oven at 500 degrees, did it turn the borax into a glass like substance which had to be ground up,when i made up a batch i had to get it very hot for it to break down eg.i had to use the forge.
 
Originally posted by B . Buxton
It took me about 2 minutes to pour 2- 5# boxes of borax into a baking dish and set the oven at 500, came back 2 1/2 hrs later and took it out, not much time spent, total cost for 10# $6.00, That site wants $13.50 plus 19.00 to ship, the money saved was well worth my 5 minutes spent.

My understanding is that you need to first *melt* the borax to get it anhydrous. Of course then you end up with a block of vitrified substance, that you then need to repulverize.

Have fun,

JD
 
Alan,

What it did was just turn it into a loaf like state that I took a hammer to in a heavy plastic bag and pulverized. The info that I got was on www.anvilfire.com just go to FAG and punch on anhydrous borax. It states that to make regular borax, anhydrous, you need the 500 degree heat to cause the molecules to open up and release the moisture. I'm planning on giving this stuff a try tomorrow and see how it works compared to regular borax, its suppose to help with better cleaning and breaking down of existing carbon scale.

Bill
 
Alan,

What it did was just turn it into a loaf like state that I took a hammer to in a heavy plastic bag and pulverized. The info that I got was on www.anvilfire.com just go to FAG and punch on anhydrous borax. It states that to make regular borax, anhydrous, you need the 500 degree heat to cause the molecules to open up and release the moisture. I'm planning on giving this stuff a try tomorrow and see how it works compared to regular borax, its suppose to help with better cleaning and breaking down of existing carbon scale.

Bill

did you ever try it out, how well did it work?
 
I heard of cutting regular Mule team borax with boric acid powder. I can't remember the ratio, or if it was even boric acid. Anybody tried this?

Will,

It's what I use in my shop now. I add about 25% of boric acid (purchased at the local dollar store as roach powder, just make sure it says "100% Boric Acid" or "100% Orthoboric acid"). It's been essential for me in my recent use of pure nickel in some pattern welded work I've been doing.

Here's what it does and why it works. Borax melts at 1365F, which works for most of our needs, but just a little more heat and you're generating scale. With nickel the oxides begin to form at a lower temperature and once they form you're pretty much done. None of the fluxes we work with will touch nickel oxides.

Boric acid on the other hand melts at less then 400F. Because of that you start to form a barrier to oxidation well before it even has a chance to start.

The reason for mixing the two is that the boric acid not only melts at a lower temperature, it burns off at a lower temperature. When you mix the two, you start to get a barrier to oxide formation at a much lower temperature. After that, the borax melts and completes the high temperature oxide barrier while also dissolving any iron oxide that may have formed or been left over.

I don't know if the melt and crush method will work to make an anhydrous mix of the two, maybe I'll try it sometime and see.

-d
 
WOW, this is a blast from the past. :D

This is what I found out 7 years ago, or 6 or 5 whenever I messed with it. Senior moments are the sh**s. Anyway for me it had no effect on my welding and to dry it out was a PITA that I didn't need, so I use nothing but plain ol twenty mule team borax and I have no problems. I guess many have more confidence in the anhydrous, so if you feel more comfortable using it, I'd say go for it. A lot of this is the confidence you have in what you use and how you use it.

Have fun,

Bill
 
I was using plain old 20 mule back then and still use it today. I works!

Deker, the boric acid does seem to help. I have used it but don't bother with it now.
 
Owen Wood gave some great demo's at Josh Smith's hammer-in. He despises borax and does not use ANY flux at all.

He relies on clean, smooth surfaces. If you have seen his steel, you'd have a hard time not wanting to at least try it sans flux. :)
 
OK, so after 7 years it still is not understood. Here is the chemist's POV and explanation:

Borax, as in 20 mule team, is any of several related compounds of the element boron.
It is mainly sodium tetra-borate.
It is hydrated with water that is tied to the compound by being bonded in the crystal structure. The usual hydration is decahydrate.Ten water molecules bonded to the sodium borate molecule. Na2,B4,O7 (10/H2O) [Actually it is a bit more complex than that, but this will do for here].
Now, when water is bonded to a compound, it won't just dry up. The bond needs to be broken. The normal way to do it is with heat. If just a little heat would work, you could just set the borax box out in the sun and it would miraculously convert into anhydrous borax. However, these bonds are a bit tougher than that. If you left it out to dry in the sun, it would ,over time,loose only about half of its water. It would degrade into tincalconite, which is sodium borate with only five water molecules bonded. Still a long way from anhydrous.
To make it anhydrous, you have to destroy the water bonds, fuse to sodium borate into an amalgous mass, and drive off the water ( the easy part). Then you have to grind the anhydrous borax back into a powder to make it useful ( not the easy part). Storage of the anhydrous material must be air tight, as it is hygroscopic, and will slowly degrade back into hydrated borax.
Purchasing anhydrous borax in sealed containers and keeping it sealed is the simplest way to deal with this. Baking it in the oven yields tincalconite and a mix of hydrated borax compounds.

HOWEVER, all that is only if you NEED anhydrous borax. While it is nice to use as flux, it isn't necessary.

First, lets discuss flux. The welding flux you purchase is a mix of borax ( usually partially dehydrated), ammonium chloride, and boric acid. Many other things are added to the mix depending on the usage, and the proprietary formulation of the seller. These include fluorspar, powdered charcoal , iron filings, and several other reducing agents.....even fine sand.
The main ingredient is the borax.

In welding , the billet/bar is brought first up to around 1000F, then pre-fluxed. This allows the borax to stick to the hot steel by dehydrating the surface of the borax particles as they hit the steel. The steel is returned to the forge/oven/furnace and heated toward welding temperature. On the way the borax dehydrates easily, gassing off the water vapor ( the bubbling stage), and coating the steel first with a crystalline coating of borax, and then with a molten coating of anhydrous borax at 1400F ( the hot honey stage). More borax is usually added somewhere near the welding point to assure the surface is completely de-oxidized. This coating (along with the other fluxing agents) causes the iron oxides and other surface contaminates to have a lower melting point, and thus "cleans" the surface to prepare it for the weld. As the steel approaches the welding temperature, the borax starts to eat into the steel ( 2000+F borax is extremely corrosive). It allows the iron filings (if present in the flux mix) to melt and fuse with the steel, and causes the steel to bond together more easily. When pressure is applied to the steel pieces being welded ( hammer/press/flywheel/drop forge/etc.) ,two things happen almost simultaneously. First, the very fluid flux is expelled from the joint ( assuming the joint was properly set up, and the pressure is properly applied) ,carrying the dissolved oxides and contaminants away with it. Next, in this now pristine environment, the atoms from one piece of steel bond to the atoms in the other piece by having the grains grow together. This makes the weld joint clean and homogeneous ( in a perfect world) or at least fairly clean and very strong ( in our world).

SO, you don't need to use anhydrous borax, since the plain hydrated stuff automatically converts to it during the fluxing process in welding.

The mix I use is 25% boric acid and 75% anhydrous borax. This is because I have a 100# barrel of borax, and a 50# barrel of boric acid. I also realize that the 30+ year old stuff is not chemical grade anymore and is partially hydrated by now. If I was to need a new batch, I would buy plain borax.



A final note about all that hot, molten borax.....It drips all over the floor of the forge. As said, it is corrosive, and especially so to things like mineral wool and satanite. It will eat a hole in the floor of the forge after a while. You can deal with this by periodically replacing the floor of the forge, by covering it with a replaceable refractory material ,like fire brick or kiln shelving, or using a flux resistant refractory coating like bubble alumina. Poured ( rammed) refractory is also fairly flux resistant.

Stacy
 
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thanks stacy that is just what i was looking for.
 
Man this is some really good stuff!!! All kinds of different opinions and all kinds of different
things to try...GREAT !!! God Bless...

Gene/Golgotha Forge & Anvil
 
+1 What Stacy said. I have tried the crucible method, it was a pain in the neck for me. Too much time involved. I tried the oven method, that borax still acted pretty "anhydrous" and it was not nearly as hard to make. That said, I just use 20 mule team from the box. I never have to worry about it rehydrating. Jim Hrisoulas mentioned in one of his books that he sometimes makes a supersaturate solution of borax in water, then dips the billiet in that liquid before welding. I can see how this would work if you were doing chain billets, etc. w/o a canister. I tried it once on a cable billet, it seemed to work well but I usually have good results anyway without resorting to that.
 
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